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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 25 May 2025
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Displaying 3150 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Decisions on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Good morning, and welcome to the seventh meeting of the Public Audit Committee in 2023. The first item on our agenda is a decision on whether to take agenda items 4 and 5 in private. Do members agree to take those items in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

Decisions on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

The second item is a decision on whether to hold our next meeting, on Thursday 9 March, in private. Are we agreed?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

The action plan on the 22 recommendations and the charting of progress in the wider audit report are very useful for us. That gives us a factual presentation of how well things are going and where there are issues. We will come on to some of the issues that are identified in the action plan and that we think are outstanding. I turn to the deputy convener, Sharon Dowey.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

One of the issues that arose last year concerned the separation of the commissioner from the position of accountable officer. What is the current status on that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you.

My final question is about an issue that Pat Kenny mentioned earlier on. We were a bit concerned about the medium-term financial planning arrangements. We were told in the action plan report that action on that was outstanding. We were struck by the expression that, in the management’s view,

“this is considered a low priority”,

to which our response was, by whom? To us, medium-term financial planning seems pretty important in ensuring the sustainability of an organisation such as a commissioner’s office.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

I want to cover a couple of areas before we close. One is in the table in exhibit 2 that tells us about the rates of complaints. I must say that one of the things that struck me was about the 1,227 elected councillors in Scotland. That number does not include board members, who can be added to that category. They are facing 146 complaints. However, the 129 MSPs are facing 760 complaints. Why is there that difference?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

I am looking at recommendation 3.4 in the action plan.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Pat, you have shared your experience of dealing with commissioners’ offices over many years. Is it usual for there to be a split between the roles of commissioner and accountable officer?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

If anyone were to take up Pat Kenny’s recommendation of an end-to-end review, that issue might be worth considering. From the committee’s point of view, it might be useful if we were able to get data on the accountable officer/commissioner role in the various commissions that are accountable to Parliament. It would be useful for us to have sight of that, because the position of accountable officer is in the Scottish public finance manual as a designated position and is, invariably, I think, the person who is the most senior official in the organisation.

10:00  

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 2 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you. I think that it is right that we leave the last word to you, Pat, because it has felt a bit like an exit interview, given the candour with which you have shared your honest assessment of what is going on out there. I found that extremely useful.

I thank the Auditor General, Richard Robinson and Pat Kenny for their evidence. We have found it a very useful session. As a committee, we will consider our next steps. Thank you for your contributions this morning.

10:04 Meeting continued in private until 11:39.