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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
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Displaying 3919 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 22 report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 18 January 2024

Richard Leonard

I am going to move us on to the final couple of areas that we want to speak to you about. One is around the corporate transformation programme. Paragraphs 84 and 85 in the audit report talk about that and remind us of the escalation in costs and the slippage in timetable of the new systems for human resources and finance. The original cost was estimated to be £22 million. It has now almost doubled; it has gone up to £40 million. The date of implementation was meant to be the middle of last year for the HR system and the end of last year for the finance system. We are now told that it will not be until April of this year. Can you provide us with an update on where that is? Are you going to meet those revised timetables?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 18 January 2024

Richard Leonard

Is an external information technology contractor involved?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 18 January 2024

Richard Leonard

With these kind of contracts, is there never any consideration given to the agreement of a fixed-price contract, rather than some kind of cost-plus, evolving and ever-increasing price tag?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 18 January 2024

Richard Leonard

Sorry for my ignorance—I have not started reading “Computer Weekly” just yet, although it has been in the news quite a lot recently. Is Oracle the name of the software or the name of the company that provides it? Who is the IT provider? What is the name of the commercial outfit that is providing the system?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 18 January 2024

Richard Leonard

That is fine—you accept the conclusions. We will ask questions to get into a bit more of the detail of some aspects of those in the time that remains.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 18 January 2024

Richard Leonard

For the avoidance of doubt, that is a long-standing request from the committee, dating back to 2016. I think that the committee was promised it in fairly short order at that time, but here we are, almost eight years later, and there is no sign of it.

Just to be clear, we are not asking for that as a matter of curiosity or because of some kind of hobbyist interest. We think that it is really important, as does the Auditor General, that we understand what we own and what we owe. Individual components of the public sector are, of course, expected to provide audited accounts so that we can see what they own and what they owe. All that we are requesting is that we get something similar across the whole of the public sector in Scotland.

We recognise that there have been obstacles to that and that there is the latest series of obstacles that are outwith your control. I think that you described that in the letter that you sent to us, permanent secretary, but I want to reaffirm the store that we set by that and the importance that we attach to it being tackled urgently. The language of the Auditor General continues to be that that is a deficiency that needs to be addressed with some urgency.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 18 January 2024

Richard Leonard

Do you think that there have been so few concerns about ministerial spending decisions in all that time that a written authority would not have been warranted at any point?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 18 January 2024

Richard Leonard

Can I take from that that you do consider the oil refinery to be a strategic commercial asset? Does it fall within the scope of your strategic commercial assets division?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 18 January 2024

Richard Leonard

What is the latest position on the submission of audited accounts?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 18 January 2024

Richard Leonard

Thanks, permanent secretary. We do get regular reports on IT projects, so we do get opportunities to view and review those.

As we are on the subject of software, I will finish by turning to our resident in-house expert on all these matters: Willie Coffey. Willie, do you want to ask the final couple of questions?