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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 29 November 2025
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Displaying 3519 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 28 September 2023

Richard Leonard

The deputy convener, Sharon Dowey, has some questions.

Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 28 September 2023

Richard Leonard

Good morning and welcome to the 24th meeting in 2023 of the Public Audit Committee. The first item on our agenda is for members to consider whether to take items 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 in private. Is that agreed?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 28 September 2023

Richard Leonard

The main item on our agenda is to take evidence on the Auditor General for Scotland’s report on adult mental health, which was co-written with the Accounts Commission. I am pleased to welcome our witnesses: Auditor General Stephen Boyle; Leigh Johnston, senior manager, Audit Scotland; Eva Thomas-Tudo, audit manager, Audit Scotland; and Christine Lester, Accounts Commission.

We have a large number of questions to ask but, before we get on to those, I ask the Auditor General to make a short opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 28 September 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you for that introduction. To go back to the starting point of the audit, the question that you set yourself was:

“How effectively are adult mental health services across Scotland being delivered?”

How would you summarise your answer to that critical question?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 28 September 2023

Richard Leonard

I will come on to ask about the focus groups in a second. Before I do so, I note that paragraph 15 in the report sets out the scale of the challenge that we face. It talks about what appear to be almost epidemic proportions, in that 22 per cent of the adult population

“may have a psychiatric disorder”.

You talk about the huge expansion in pressure and demand on services. For example,

“The number of police incidents relating to mental health increased by 62 per cent ...The Scottish Association for Mental Health ... reported a 50 per cent increase in demand for its information service”

and

“The number of calls to NHS 24’s 111 Mental Health Hub increased by 436 per cent”.

Those are startling figures, which are presumably placing huge pressure on the system. We might not have measured the outcomes, but we know something about the scale of the demand that there is.

Do you want to tell us a bit more about the qualitative information that you got from the focus groups that you met and what that told you about their experience?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 28 September 2023

Richard Leonard

Okay, but is it therefore possible that that spend was deprioritised?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 28 September 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you. That is a theme that we will return to during the course of the morning. I turn to Colin Beattie, who has some questions to put to you.

Public Audit Committee

“New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 21 September 2023

Richard Leonard

We will come on to the business investment framework shortly. I will ask you about the issue of transparency. On 31 May, a meeting took place between the former First Minister and Jim McColl at which no permanent civil servant was present. Does the Scottish Government have a view on that?

Public Audit Committee

“New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 21 September 2023

Richard Leonard

Does the Scottish Government have a view on a meeting between a minister and a private contractor at which no permanent civil servants are present?

Public Audit Committee

“New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 21 September 2023

Richard Leonard

But not a permanent civil servant.