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Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 20 June 2024
Richard Leonard
The principal item on our agenda is further consideration of the Auditor General for Scotland’s section 23 report “NHS in Scotland 2023”. In the interest of transparency, I refer members to my membership of two trade unions that organise workers who are employed in the national health service.
I welcome our witnesses this morning. We are joined by Caroline Lamb, who is the chief executive of NHS Scotland and the director general of health and social care for the Scottish Government; Richard McCallum, who is the director of health and social care finance, digital and governance for the Scottish Government; and John Burns, who is the chief operating officer of NHS Scotland.
The committee has got quite a number of questions to put to you, but, before we get to those, I invite Caroline Lamb to make a short opening statement.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 20 June 2024
Richard Leonard
Okay. I will ask one final question. Last year, we had a discussion about the national treatment centres, their costs, why they had gone over time—why they were being delayed—and so on. You wrote back, director general, on 22 July last year, explaining that the “original plan” was to open up six centres by 2021, at a cost of £200 million of public money. You also appended a table setting out details of seven centres that were yet to be completed, which had an estimated cost of £827 million. Why was there such a huge increase in the costs that were budgeted for the building of those treatment centres?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 20 June 2024
Richard Leonard
But that would not be impossible, would it? Given that it has gone from £200 million to £827 million, we can easily see how it could continue to rise.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 6 June 2024
Richard Leonard
Thank you. I am conscious of the time and I know that two other members of the committee want to come in with some questions. I will turn to the deputy convener first and then I will bring Mr Simpson in.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 6 June 2024
Richard Leonard
I am sorry to repeat myself, but I presume that you are the accountable officer who is responsible for the economy, efficiency and effectiveness of processes including these and their outcomes.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 6 June 2024
Richard Leonard
That is helpful. Could you clarify what purpose is served by an exit fee? We have learned this morning that there was not one in the case of Kilmarnock prison. Why on some contracts are there exit fees? Why would you negotiate an exit fee?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 6 June 2024
Richard Leonard
That is helpful. I am conscious of the fact that, the last time he was here, Mr Reekie told us that there are only three people in the team looking at PFIs, so I recognise that there might be some capacity issues. However, if you could supply us with that information, that would be helpful.
In a similar vein, is retendering an option in any of these cases? That is probably more a question for Mr Rennick. Do you look at a range of options in the lead-up to the expiry of one of those PFI contracts? We rehearsed the issue a little bit in relation to the Serco contract at Kilmarnock, but in more general terms, wearing your value-for-money hat, is that a consideration?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 6 June 2024
Richard Leonard
Okay. Mr Reekie, in your broader survey of PFI contracts, are you aware of the quantum of PFI contracts that are coming up over the next few years that have these exit fees?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 6 June 2024
Richard Leonard
I want to revisit a question that was asked earlier. Is it a policy position of the Scottish Government that, on expiry of the PFI contracts, they will all transfer into the public sector?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 6 June 2024
Richard Leonard
I want to explore that dynamic a little bit more, particularly your relationship with the minister or the cabinet secretary, for example. As the Public Audit Committee, we are interested when we hear about a written authority being sought by civil servants from ministers. Last year, we had such a case with the decision to continue with the procurement of MV Glen Rosa, as it is now called—at the time, it was vessel 802—from Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow. The only other instance in recent memory went all the way back to 2007, and that was a decision by the justice secretary at the time not to proceed with the construction of Low Moss prison under PFI. Presumably, the civil service advice was against such a move and, therefore, a written authority was required. Is there any possibility of such conversations being had or outcomes being reached as the PFI contracts expire?