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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 29 November 2025
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Displaying 3519 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“Decarbonising heat in homes”

Meeting date: 28 March 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much indeed for that evidence session. It has been very useful. There might be some issues on which we need to follow up, but I think that you have furnished us with comprehensive answers to the questions that we have put to you. I thank Sue Kearns, Catherine Williams, Kersti Berge and the director general, Roy Brannen, for their time this morning.

I will suspend the meeting to allow for a change of witnesses.

10:12 Meeting suspended.  

10:17 On resuming—  

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 28 March 2024

Richard Leonard

Welcome back. The second public evidence session this morning is on the Auditor General’s section 22 report “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”, one dimension of which is consideration of the operation of the contract that is run by GEOAmey. I am pleased to welcome our witnesses, who are from GEOAmey. We are joined by David Jones, the managing director; James Huntley, the commercial and finance director; and Gavin Redmond, the account director for the Scottish court custody and prison escorting service. You are all very welcome.

We have some questions to put to you but, before we get to those, I invite Mr Jones to make a short opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 28 March 2024

Richard Leonard

We will move things along. I invite Colin Beattie to put some questions to you. Mr Huntley, I do not know whether you were preparing to answer one of those questions, but perhaps you could respond to Mr Beattie’s questions.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 28 March 2024

Richard Leonard

You appear to concede that there may be a human rights-based case, but your position is that, as a company, GEOAmey has no liability. Is that correct?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 28 March 2024

Richard Leonard

Is it up to individual crews to phone ahead to the court and say, “We’re going to be eight hours”, “We’re going to be two hours delayed” or “We’re not going to make it today at all”, or do you have some kind of central operational hub from which you make those calls?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 28 March 2024

Richard Leonard

Wow.

11:15  

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 28 March 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay, but you have said that, back in 2020, the hourly rate of pay for your officers—throughout today’s proceedings, you have called them “officers”, which conveys a certain level of status to them—was less than £10. You might be surprised, but I am not surprised, that people would leave in droves if they were given opportunities to find work that paid more than that, given the kind of job that this is.

I presume that, when you put in your tender document, it was based on a forecasted hourly rate of pay, which, at the time, I can only assume, was also less than £10 an hour.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 28 March 2024

Richard Leonard

It has been a bone of contention, certainly in the past, that your rates of pay on the contract in England were more than your rates of pay on the contract in Scotland. Is that correct?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 28 March 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay. That is fine.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Water Industry Commission for Scotland”

Meeting date: 21 March 2024

Richard Leonard

I think that Graham Simpson has some more questions in line with that.