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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 22 July 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of NHS Forth Valley”

Meeting date: 29 February 2024

Richard Leonard

You refer to the note that you sent us in advance of your appearance here today. There was a lot of managerial jargon in it, and it was quite long. When it came to staff relations, it mainly just discussed whistleblowing. We all accept that whistleblowing is part of a suite of ways for the staff’s voices to be heard, but I would have thought that whistleblowing public interest disclosures were in extremis. As I read it, the point that is being made in the external reviews, including the HIS review, is that there are not good, normalised, routine communications with the staff—including through the staff trade unions, I presume. I do not know whether Mr Reith, as the human resources director, wishes to comment on that.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of NHS Forth Valley”

Meeting date: 29 February 2024

Richard Leonard

Perhaps Professor Dodd could come in briefly on the point about staff relations under the HIS report. Other questions about the report are still to come.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of NHS Forth Valley”

Meeting date: 29 February 2024

Richard Leonard

Before we finish up, I will take us back to the report that was produced 22 months ago by Healthcare Improvement Scotland following its unannounced inspection. For example, it reported that it had found a

“lack of documented risks assessments”;

and that

“the addition of a fifth bed within a four bedded bay”

created what it felt to be a breach of standard operating procedures; and so on. There were quite serious allegations about patient care.

HIS also spoke about the vacancy rate as being very high within certain staff groups, such as the registered nursing staff group, in which the vacancy rate was more than 10 per cent, and the medical staff group, in which the vacancy rate was 13.76 per cent.

Will you address those issues in turn and tell us what progress you have made in 22 months?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of NHS Forth Valley”

Meeting date: 29 February 2024

Richard Leonard

Where are we with staff vacancy rates and so on?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of NHS Forth Valley”

Meeting date: 29 February 2024

Richard Leonard

As has been suggested by other members of the committee, it might be useful if you could follow that up in writing with some more up-to-date information, so that we have that data on the record.

My final reflection follows on from the deputy convener’s previous salient question. Three of you are very new to what are very senior positions in the health board. Did the people who left go through any kind of exit interview?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of NHS Forth Valley”

Meeting date: 29 February 2024

Richard Leonard

Do not misunderstand me: I am not asking you to send us copies, with people’s reasons for leaving, as a matter of public record; I am just asking whether, as a matter of good practice, you are monitoring those reasons so that you can establish if there are trends or other things.

Public Audit Committee

“Decarbonising heat in homes”

Meeting date: 29 February 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay, but a recurring theme has come out in the report. The third recommendation in the report talks about the need to

“identify the staff numbers and skills”

required. It sounds as if a good old-fashioned workforce plan—which we speak about a lot at the Public Audit Committee—is needed. Is that in place? If it is not yet in place, what arrangements are under way to ensure that it is? Where are we on progress with that?

Public Audit Committee

“Decarbonising heat in homes”

Meeting date: 29 February 2024

Richard Leonard

I do not know whether you have—or are willing to state on the record—a view on the dilution of targets in some cases and their abandonment in others. The original target was that, by 2030, 1 million homes out of the 2.5 million in Scotland would be converted, and that we would see a complete phasing out of all new gas boilers by around those target dates. We would also have 22 per cent of heat being generated by renewables; that percentage relates not to the number of households but to the measure of heat. All those targets seem to have been dropped.

Public Audit Committee

“Decarbonising heat in homes”

Meeting date: 29 February 2024

Richard Leonard

Your report certainly indicates that you are calling into question some of those targets. There is also a credibility question, about whether the scale of change is sufficient. There are 2.5 million households in Scotland, but you refer to only 26,000 households having had heat pumps installed. That represents a completion rate of around 1 per cent, which, by my rough arithmetic, leaves more than 98 per cent of households having not had those conversions.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of NHS Forth Valley”

Meeting date: 29 February 2024

Richard Leonard

Partnership working is meant to be a hallmark of good working in the NHS in Scotland, and we are trying to understand the extent to which that has or has not been working.