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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 20 July 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 28 March 2024

Richard Leonard

Before I turn to Graham Simpson, I reflect on something that Gavin Redmond mentioned: the unforecast rise in the number of medical appointments and the strain that that brings. In opening, Mr Jones, you mentioned that you had watched—or read, anyway—the evidence that was given to the committee a couple of weeks ago by His Majesty’s chief inspector of prisons. She told us about potential risks through human rights-based challenges, because of the denial of people’s basic human rights, including to things such as access to medical services. Have you as a company considered that? For example, do you consider that you as a corporation could be at risk as a co-nominee in any challenge that is based on human rights?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 28 March 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay. We are not going to rehearse a court case here, so I will move on.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 28 March 2024

Richard Leonard

Mr Jones, I want to ask you about another piece of correspondence—the letter that was sent by Cat Boyd of the Public and Commercial Services Union to the Cabinet Secretary for Justice on 14 December. I am going to go into a new area that we have not covered, because I am looking for your response to what is said in that letter.

The bit that I want to concentrate on—I am sort of looking at Mr Redmond here—is the communication element. In her letter, Cat Boyd from the PCS, on behalf of her members—that is, people who work in the court service—makes criticism of the

“Lack of communication/accurate communication. If custody hasn’t arrived in the building it is very difficult to find out where they are”

or an estimated time of arrival. She also says in the letter:

“GEOAmey will unilaterally put courts down when they do not have enough staff to cover them. This is usually done without consultation”.

How do you respond to those charges?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 28 March 2024

Richard Leonard

I have a couple of quick questions before I invite Willie Coffey to wind up the session.

In answer to Graham Simpson’s questions, you mentioned that the new hourly rate of pay from 1 May this year would be £13.25. At the point at which the chief inspector described the situation as being “shocking”—that is, presumably prior to October 2023—these heroic front-line staff would have been working through the pandemic. What was the hourly rate of pay back in 2020?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 28 March 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay. I take it that staff do not have a no-strike clause.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 28 March 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay. Fine. If you want to furnish us with more details on that in writing afterwards, that would be helpful.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 28 March 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you. We are right up against the clock, and I think that we have broken any cap that we might have set ourselves, so I will draw proceedings to a close at that point. I thank David Jones, James Huntley and Gavin Redmond for their evidence and for making themselves available today; we very much appreciate that and wish them well in the future.

We will now move into private session.

11:32 Meeting continued in private until 11:36.  

Public Audit Committee

“Decarbonising heat in homes”

Meeting date: 28 March 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay, but we are in 2024, and the Scottish Government declared a climate emergency back in 2019. I understand why you mentioned the need to be careful and the need for extensive consultation, but why, in 2024, five years after a climate emergency was declared, are your plans still out to consultation? Why are we still talking about the need to take people with us? Why is it taking so long?

Public Audit Committee

“Decarbonising heat in homes”

Meeting date: 28 March 2024

Richard Leonard

Let me turn to another aspect of this, which is drawn out in paragraph 47 of the report, which tells us that the heat and building strategy progress report shows

“a spend of £170 million”.

Have you undertaken an assessment of the effectiveness of that spend?

Public Audit Committee

“Decarbonising heat in homes”

Meeting date: 28 March 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much indeed for that evidence session. It has been very useful. There might be some issues on which we need to follow up, but I think that you have furnished us with comprehensive answers to the questions that we have put to you. I thank Sue Kearns, Catherine Williams, Kersti Berge and the director general, Roy Brannen, for their time this morning.

I will suspend the meeting to allow for a change of witnesses.

10:12 Meeting suspended.  

10:17 On resuming—