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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 17 May 2025
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Displaying 3061 contributions

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Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

Gillian Martin

There will be partnership working. The powers that I have just outlined are to deal with the problematic gap in evidence gathering. However, from discussions with the police and the procurator fiscal’s office, in particular, we have decided to limit those powers in the way that I have described.

There will be partnership working between the three agencies. There already is partnership working between them. If the bill is passed, protocols will be put in place between the police and the SSPCA on how the new functions in the powers should work, including what reporting mechanisms there will be and how the agencies can work together effectively. That will ensure that there is partnership working. It might not be exactly to the letter of what the task force said or the partnership working that it advocated, but there will still be enhanced partnership working between the police, the procurator fiscal and the SSPCA, in line with the powers that I have outlined.

10:30  

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

Gillian Martin

I heard those concerns in June, when I came to speak to you about what will constitute an investigation that might trigger action with regard to a licence. I think that some of those points were well made. It is incumbent on the legislation to make clear what constitutes an investigation.

We are looking at a few options, but I am currently minded to make that when something has a crime number. I take the concerns that were raised very seriously. What is an investigation? NatureScot needs clarity on that and so do stakeholders. Legislation should provide clarity. One of the options that I am looking at—and I am leaning towards this—is that an investigation may trigger a suspension of a licence or whatever by NatureScot when it has a crime number associated with it.

That goes back to having confidence in the approach. The SSPCA will assist the police in relation to evidence gathering but, when it comes down to it, an investigation will be a police investigation.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

Gillian Martin

I am working to arrive at a definition that I am happy with. I have maybe given you a little more information than I should have given at this stage, because we have not settled on that, but we will settle on something that will be a definition.

I do not know whether Hugh Dignon wants to comment.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

Gillian Martin

I will add that to the list, convener.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

Gillian Martin

Forgive me if I do not want to tell you to the letter everything that I have not already decided on. We are deliberating on that. I think that you were one of the people who outlined your concerns about the definition of an investigation and whether it is an SSPCA investigation or a police investigation. I am more minded that it be a police investigation. The whole point of giving the SSPCA the extra powers was to make sure that evidence could be gathered in a timeous way that would assist the police and that we would not have a situation in which evidence was available to the SSPCA but it could do nothing but walk away from it. That is the gap that we are filling here.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

Gillian Martin

That is why we have to be absolutely clear. That is right up there on my priority list.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

Gillian Martin

No, not everything will be given a crime number.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

Gillian Martin

I am almost regretting that I have given you the information about something that we are actively looking at. However, your questions are helpful in that regard. The general point that I want to leave you with is that I am taking the calls for a definition of an investigation very seriously, and I want it to be clear.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

Gillian Martin

Nobody is saying that, as soon as something is being investigated, a licence is suspended. There has to be a consideration and an analysis before that happens. It is not a case of pressing the button and X happening.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

Gillian Martin

Training should fall under the protocol agreement between Police Scotland and the SSPCA. They will be working on that protocol and the training will come out of that. The SSPCA is comfortable with that and does not foresee much in the way of resource issues. It is more concerned about the fact that it is almost wasting its resource for wildlife crime, because it could be in a situation in which its inspectors could see evidence but are not able do anything with it. The SSPCA wants to work with the police to fill that gap and put together a protocol agreement. Officers who have those powers—it will not be every officer—will undergo the training. All that will come out of the protocol.