Chamber and committees

Before I speak to your amendments, convener, I clarify that “Scottish Natural Heritage” is the term that is used in legislation, whereas “NatureScot” is the organisation’s public-facing brand name. They are names for the same organisation. I understand that that can become a little confusing, but I consistently refer to it as NatureScot.

With the greatest respect, I believe that Finlay Carson’s amendments 78, 80, 19, 93, 41, 103 and 105 are unnecessary. The bill contains a set of enabling powers to allow Scottish ministers to modify, by Scottish statutory instrument, provisions relating to wildlife traps, section 16AA licences and muirburn. Such modifications are subject to the conditions that are set out in the bill, including the requirement to consult. Any changes that are made under those provisions are already subject to the affirmative procedure.

The policy note for SSIs that are laid in the Scottish Parliament contains a consultation section that outlines the form of consultation that has been conducted. The policy note also contains the reasons for introducing the SSI, which will normally include the views of stakeholders. I therefore do not see any need to set out in the bill a requirement to publish consultations that are undertaken in relation to use of the enabling powers. I encourage members to vote against the amendments.

Likewise, I will not support amendments 84 and 100. They would add the requirement to publish the results of consultation undertaken while preparing, reviewing or revising the muirburn code, or the code for section 16AA licences, and to give reasons for the decisions that had been taken.

It is standard practice for Scottish ministers to consult interested parties on such matters, and we regularly share and publish consultation responses. As I set out in my letter to the committee last week, when I provided an update on the development of muirburn and grouse moor management codes, interested parties have been consulted continually and have been included in the process of developing the codes. I therefore see no reason to set such matters out in primary legislation. I encourage members to vote against the amendments.

I turn to Edward Mountain’s amendments 19 and 41. On amendment 19, the provisions in the bill set out that when preparing, reviewing or revising the code of practice for grouse licences, Scottish ministers must consult

“any other person they consider appropriate”.

It is fair to say that land managers would fall into that category, so, in my view, we do not need to provide for that specifically in the bill.

Similarly, on amendment 41, it is clear to me that land managers are likely to be interested in or affected by muirburn, so Scottish ministers would already be required to consult them when considering amending the dates for the muirburn season. However, I have listened to what Mr Mountain has said—

I might be about to give you some comfort in my next paragraph. Perhaps I could get to the end of that, and then I will—

I genuinely cannot think of any consultation that I have been involved in, in the time since I have been a minister, whose results have not been published. Such publication is standard practice in the Scottish Government.

A financial memorandum is essential for any bill that has been introduced. The estimates were based on the stage that we were at. However, we need to allow the wider review to conclude.

On the questions about the cost of a particular licence, I have just said that all the licensing fees, the cost recovery and how the licences work will be reviewed by NatureScot. If I were to say anything about a particular licence today, that would pre-empt the analysis that NatureScot will do. We have to allow it to get on with that work, as instructed by the minister responsible.

Amendment 56 inserts a requirement for any application for a wildlife trap licence to include evidence that the applicant has completed an approved training course.

The bill currently provides that the licensing authority, which I expect to be NatureScot, has the ability to determine what information is to be supplied alongside a wildlife trap licence application, which could include evidence of training. However, having reflected on the issue, I think that it would be more transparent to have the requirement for evidence of training stated in the bill, as that would make it clear to all applicants that they are required to complete an approved training course and to provide proof of that when applying for a licence. Requiring the applicant to provide proof of relevant training when they submit their application will aid the relevant authority in determining whether a licence should be granted. I encourage members to vote for my amendment 56.

Edwards Mountain’s amendments 10, 10B and 11 would have the effect of requiring NatureScot to grant a licence if the applicant had completed the training or was born after 31 December 1983 and had used the type of trap in question professionally for at least a decade. If an applicant met the age and professional experience criteria, they would be exempt from any requirement to undergo training. I encourage the committee to reject those amendments. The wildlife trap training requirement is not about telling people how to do their job; it is about recognising that the use of wildlife traps requires an appropriate level of skill and training if we want to avoid any adverse welfare outcomes in the future.

The requirement in the bill that wildlife trap users should undergo appropriate training has been largely supported by stakeholders. Land managers have told me that they already undertake a lot of training, and I am conscious that there are many people involved in grouse moor and wildlife management who have significant knowledge and expertise—and they seem to be pleased to evidence it. The purpose of the training requirement is to incorporate all that experience and learning, ensuring that everyone using wildlife traps has high standards across the board, which they can evidence.

I will quote from the committee’s stage 1 evidence. Alex Hogg, chairman of the Scottish Gamekeepers Association, said that the SGA was

“up for doing the trap training and getting it right. Whatever you decide on, we will comply with it”.—[Official Report, Rural Affairs and Islands Committee, 14 June 2023; c 43.]

Regarding the exemption based on age, I do not think that we can assume that someone, just because they are over 40, will automatically have all the right skills. They may have been using the trap incorrectly for a number of years, or they might not be aware that there are new legal requirements, such as a change in the baffle size. The purpose of the training requirement is to ensure that high standards are maintained and are consistent through continuous professional development. The bill requires a person to use a trap in accordance with the approved training course. If they do not, they will have committed an offence.

By not requiring certain people to undergo training and refresher training, there is the potential that they may not have the knowledge to comply with the requirement to operate the trap in question in accordance with the approved training course. That would be setting them up to fail.

For those reasons, I cannot support amendments 10 and 11, and I encourage committee members to vote against them.

Rachael Hamilton’s amendment 10A would remove the requirement in amendment 10 that a trap user must be born on or before 31 December 1983. That would address concerns that I have about amendment 10 in relation to the age of an applicant. For that reason, I fully support amendment 10A, as it would mitigate some of the issues that I have with amendment 10. On that basis, I would encourage committee members to support amendment 10A.

I will be clear, however: even with the changes contained in amendment 10A, amendment 10 would still allow a wildlife trap licence to be issued to any applicant who has completed the training course and has used the type of trap in question in a professional capacity for a period of at least 10 years consecutively, regardless of their suitability. I therefore cannot support amendment 10. Even if members are minded to vote for amendment 10A, I would still hope that they will vote against amendment 10 as amended.

Colin Smyth’s amendment 113 would impose a condition that a trap licence could not be issued if it was for the primary purpose of managing the number of wild birds that are available for sport shooting. Grouse shooting makes an important contribution to the rural economy and provides jobs in rural and island communities. The bill is not about stopping or outlawing that activity. Predator control is carried out in Scotland for a variety of purposes, including on grouse moors. I have concerns that limiting the use of traps on grouse moors could have a detrimental effect on the ability of important rural businesses to undertake legitimate activities. I have made it very clear that the bill is about the management of grouse moors and ensuring that related activities are undertaken in an environmentally sustainable manner; it is not about banning sports shooting.

However, I am clear that anyone who uses traps, whether on a grouse moor or elsewhere, must comply with the law and adhere to all the conditions of their licence. If they do not, NatureScot has the power to take appropriate action. For those reasons, I cannot support amendment 113, and I encourage the committee to vote against it.

Colin Smyth’s amendment 114 proposes to introduce a condition that the licensing authority can grant a wildlife trap licence only if the proposed use of a wildlife trap is justified by evidence of harm caused by the species intended to be killed or taken, and if no other method that is non-lethal or has a lower animal welfare impact would be effective in reducing that harm. With all respect, amendment 114 misunderstands the purpose of the wildlife trap licence, which is to apply it to the individual, not to the land or the purpose for which trapping is carried out. Individuals may trap a range of species for a variety of purposes, and they may do so professionally or not. The requirement to evidence harm and to show that other non-lethal methods are not effective would be onerous to administer, and it is likely to have wider unintended consequences, as many farmers and crofters utilise traps for reasons that we have discussed many times, including today.

As part of the Bute house agreement, we have committed to reviewing the wider species licensing system, not just for cost recovery reasons but with a view to ensuring that lethal control is licensed only where the relevant conditions are demonstrably being met. As well as considering issues such as cost recovery, the review will provide an opportunity to examine the whole system and how it operates. It will also ensure that welfare principles are part of the system. That review is the appropriate place to consider all issues relating to wildlife licensing. For those reasons, I cannot support amendment 114 and I encourage committee members to vote against it.

Amendment 115 requires that trap licences specify the maximum number of traps for which the licence holder may be responsible at any one time and the location where the traps may be used. As I have already said, the wildlife trap licence applies to the person rather than the land on which it is to be used. Limiting the maximum number of traps and the locations where a person can use their traps could result in issues for licence holders, as many of them trap animals professionally and could require to use traps in numerous locations, even nationwide. As some trap users work on behalf of estates in multiple places, the effect of amendment 115 would be to create an additional administrative burden should they change job, as well as limiting their ability to earn a living.

Limiting the locations would impede the use of the traps under the licence, as target animals may move out of the licensed area, so a licence holder would be unable to trap the target animal unless they applied to the relevant authority to have the licence updated—by which time the animal could have moved again. That requirement for regular updating of the licence would add an unnecessary administrative burden for the relevant authority, which would need to process the updated licence every time that a trap was moved.

In short, the requirements of amendment 115 would be unworkable in practice. They are neither appropriate nor proportionate. For those reasons, I cannot support amendment 115 and I encourage the committee to vote against it.

Under amendment 116, the wildlife trap training and licence would have to be renewed every five years. In his review of grouse moors, Professor Werritty recommended

“That any operator dealing with the relevant category of trap (cage and/or spring) should undergo refresher training at least once every ten years.”

The Scottish Government has accepted Professor Werritty’s recommendation and has heard no representations from stakeholders that that time interval should be reduced.

Edward Mountain has raised concerns about the proportionality of the wildlife trap training requirement. There are concerns that it places an undue burden on people who are already well trained. I do not necessarily agree with those concerns. However, increasing the frequency of refresher training to every five years goes too far, in my view. The period of 10 years that is set out in the bill is a maximum, so NatureScot can already choose to grant a licence for less than 10 years if it thinks it appropriate in the circumstances of an individual licence application. I believe that that approach strikes the right balance between the licensing authority having proper oversight of the scheme and maintaining animal welfare standards and not placing an unnecessary burden on rural workers. For those reasons, I cannot support amendment 116 and I encourage committee members to vote against it.

Amendment 117 would require trap licence holders to maintain records and report annually on the number and species of all animals killed or taken in traps. I do not believe the amendment to be necessary, as the bill already allows NatureScot to add any conditions to a licence that it considers appropriate, which would include reporting requirements. Amendment 117 would tie NatureScot’s hands if, for example, it wanted to receive reports more or less frequently. For those reasons, I cannot support amendment 117 and I encourage the committee to vote against it.

Amendment 118 would add the requirement that every wildlife trap licence be subject to the condition that the use of traps under the licence must be undertaken in accordance with the highest possible standards of animal welfare. I believe that the amendment is also unnecessary, because those animal welfare standards will be embedded in the scheme as part of the trap training, and traps must be used in accordance with that training. For those reasons I cannot support amendment 118 and I encourage committee members to vote against it.

I move amendment 56.

My expectation is that the person who wants a licence to operate traps will be trained as part of the licensing of the traps that they want to operate and that the training will be comprehensive. I imagine that, off the back of this, a range of courses will be accredited by the licence developer, NatureScot, which will be looking at what those courses offer. You have listed a great number of traps, and it is my expectation that, if a person wants to operate all those traps, they should have a working understanding of and training in how to work them safely.

Amendment 56 agreed to.

Amendment 1 not moved.

Amendment 112 moved—[Rachael Hamilton].

Can I just clarify something?

I will always entertain sensible discussions, and I am interested in what you say about a process of independent arbitration. It is possible that we could ask for that to be looked at for the review process to see whether that might be welcome. I imagine that no public body wants to go to judicial review or be referred to the Scottish Public Services Ombudsman. That might be an additional step, and I am interested in pursuing the matter further. I will ask my officials to look at it and speak to people who might be involved. We could also have a meeting ahead of stage 3 to see whether it could be workable.

You never know; perhaps I will cover what it is you want to raise, so let me get to the end of my rationale for this.

Ms Hamilton mentioned a challenge, but there is always the risk of a challenge to any legislation that goes through a Parliament. People are free to challenge any aspect of legislation. I will not comment on the situation in Wales, as it is for the Welsh Government to answer questions on the rationale for its own decisions.

We have done a great deal of work on the matter. Indeed, a great deal of work has been done not just in this parliamentary session but over the past decade. The weight of evidence of the impact that snares are having on the welfare of wild animals has become something that we cannot ignore, which is why I have decided to take forward a full ban on snares. I point to evidence from the work that we have done not just on the bill but throughout the year. Indeed, we set up the Scottish Animal Welfare Commission to do that type of work on behalf of the Scottish public, and it has made a very strong recommendation on this matter. That recommendation comes from animal welfare experts across Scotland who are at the top of their profession, and I personally cannot ignore it.