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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 14 May 2025
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Displaying 3061 contributions

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Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 September 2024

Gillian Martin

Thank you, Mr Doris. I appreciate that there is a requirement to set those carbon budgets 12 years in advance. It is our intention to introduce regulations next year that will set at least the first three budgets, which will cover the period up to 2040.

I heard evidence from your stakeholders that it is really important to give a long-term view, because a lot of the actions that must be taken in order to get us to net zero need long-term certainty around policy direction. The regulations will cover the period up to 2040.

I will use the latest advice from the CCC and align with the period for the next climate change plan. It will be essential that we set out those pathways to 2040 at least. With my officials, I will consider what that looks like and the regulations that are required in order to get those in place.

Phil, I do not know whether you want to add anything to that, but that is my understanding.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 September 2024

Gillian Martin

It would be hugely irresponsible of any Government to do that—

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 September 2024

Gillian Martin

Let me take that point away, and I will look at the evidence that you got earlier as well. Obviously, we look at other UK Parliaments; they have been working with five-year carbon budgets for some time, while we have not. We could maybe do an analysis of the situation that you describe—where that has happened and it has been an issue. You are right that, if you have a Government that cares about reaching those targets and taking that action, it will act responsibly, and the reports that we have every year will prompt it to take action. If you have a Government that does not act responsibly, how do you hold it to account? That is a fair point.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 September 2024

Gillian Martin

If I could correct you, there will be a report every year. Two reports will be produced—on our reduction of greenhouse gases in the baseline and on how we are meeting the climate change plan—every single year.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 September 2024

Gillian Martin

With regard to what has happened—digging into the figures, what they mean and why this happened—I hope that it will be okay if I bring in Phil Raines, who has been working on the matter and who told me about it.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 September 2024

Gillian Martin

Regarding the section 36 report and everything associated with it, there will be a statement in Parliament on Thursday, which will include this matter.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 September 2024

Gillian Martin

I would not think so. However, if we do not change the mechanism in law to five-year carbon budgeting, the CCC will not know what advice to give us.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 September 2024

Gillian Martin

The reason is simple. If we were to align with the timing of the UK Government’s carbon budget, we would have to wait until—I will check with Philip Raines—2028. We want to go as quickly as possible. We do not want any void in setting out our plans for the targets or for setting out our carbon budget.

Coincidentally, if we move at the pace that we have intimated to you, we will be in line with the Welsh Government. The Welsh Government is not in line with the UK Government.

Fundamentally, we have to work back from the 2045 target. The UK Government has set a 2050 net zero target. We went further because we have been told many times that we have more capacity for the sequestration of carbon—for example, in peatlands and in having more room for planting woodland. We could go a lot faster and reach net zero by 2045. Working back from 2045 has informed the starting point of our carbon budget. The UK Government is working back from 2050.

I do not think that aligning the timescales would make any material difference because, as I said, work on all the actions that all the Governments are taking is happening all the time anyway. We are working together to make sure that what Scotland does will help the UK to meet its 2050 target, and that what the UK does—if it takes the action that it says it will take, as I hope it will—will help us to meet our 2045 target. That is the real reason. I do not want this envelope—this carbon budget—to start in 2028, because that would be wasted time.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 September 2024

Gillian Martin

I will tell you why I did not consider that to be the best approach. If I introduced a bill that did not put in place a new target structure, we would have a void—the previous targets from the 2019 act are not achievable, so we would have nothing in place, and building a climate change plan out of that would not be possible.

We require the bill, which I hope that the Parliament will agree to, in order to have five-year carbon budgets and to set in train this different approach, on which we will get advice from the Climate Change Committee. Once the bill has been passed, the Climate Change Committee will put together its advice to us; it will give us the advice on the targets in spring next year; and the systems that we must have in order for us to take the advice, put it in train and set the targets in secondary legislation will be in place.

If you are suggesting that we should have had legislation just to change the timing of the climate change plan, I note that it would be difficult to put a new climate change plan in place without advice from the CCC, because we would not have such structures in place. If that was ever considered, it was off the table quite quickly.

As acting cabinet secretary, I came into this with the view that we were going to introduce a narrow bill that would put the structures in place, as well as the three things that I mentioned in my opening statement. The bill will allow us to have five-year carbon budgeting and allow the climate change plan to follow that, once we have set our targets in secondary legislation. That is the swiftest approach to getting in place a credible climate change plan in which the action will be described.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 September 2024

Gillian Martin

Ms Lennon, maybe I can take that point away, because whether I am able to write to the committee to tell you what work has been done is a different question. It is a different ask for me to give the committee a draft of a draft of a draft plan, and that is what I was really talking about. However, I am perfectly willing, with my officials, to look at all the work that has been done leading up to the climate change plan. It is perfectly acceptable for me to say to the committee what day-to-day work has been done on that. However, I will not give the committee a draft of a draft of a draft plan. I do not think that any Government would do that.