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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 13 September 2025
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Displaying 2963 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

John Mason

That is okay. Does the David Hume Institute have a view?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

John Mason

You raise the issue of preventative spend, which the committee has done quite a lot of work on. We are all sympathetic to it but struggle with how to put it into practice, if we have no extra money at the moment. I take the point in paragraph 7 of your submission that education, housing and employment are key things that can prevent problems and reduce demand on, say, the NHS or other more reactive services.

Do you have suggestions as to how we balance that? We are continually shown the waiting time for accident and emergency at hospitals, which is a big figure that we all get excited about. If we put more money into that, there is less money for housing or whatever. Do you have suggestions on how to get the balance right?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

John Mason

Does anyone else want to come in on that question? No. I realise that it is a sensitive issue.

We have already mentioned the interaction between income tax and corporation tax and the idea that people might incorporate. In the Chartered Institute of Taxation’s submission, Charlotte Barbour, you also mention various other taxes such as capital gains tax and national insurance. There is a whole package in there. If more of those taxes were to be devolved, we could presumably come up with a more joined-up system. I read a Reform Scotland paper about tax—published in June, I think—that was quite interesting. Is it the Chartered Institute’s argument that the position should be a bit more neutral, so that, if somebody incorporated, that should not make any difference? For example, they might put their profits into shares, which are subject to capital gains tax, but all the taxes on any kind of income could be set at the same rate—I think that some countries do that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

John Mason

No—absolutely. I will raise another point that may be linked. The David Hume Institute talks about

“the size of the envelope”

and

“growing the tax base”

Are you also thinking widely? Do you mean income-based taxes, land-based taxes or other taxes?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

John Mason

Will you expand on that a bit more? When you refer to the size of the envelope, what is the envelope?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

John Mason

I will come to Ms Flanagan in a moment, but can I press you on that? There is a political angle as well as the technical angle, is there not? If you are in South Lanarkshire Council and, across the road, North Lanarkshire Council is doing something differently, you and your colleagues come under pressure. I am sorry—you are from Dumfries and Galloway Council; that was just an example. A council will come under pressure when people say that the neighbouring council is doing so much more—it is collecting the bins more often and all that kind of thing. Do you feel under pressure to be consistent with other councils?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

John Mason

I will leave it at that, although colleagues might want to follow up. It would be helpful to get that email.

Auditor General, in your submission, you talk about the fiscal framework being

“intended to incentivise the Scottish Government”

You say that, when the Scottish economy is doing well, tax revenues increase and that, when it is not doing so well, revenues do not increase. Would you be prepared to say that the fiscal framework is weighted against Scotland at the moment?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

John Mason

Are you saying that the existence of a community hall is copyrighted?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

John Mason

I am absolutely for data being available. Is the £2 billion quite a rough figure?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

John Mason

I do not think that you will find anybody here who is going to argue with that—I am certainly not. The point has been made, and I think that it is made in your submission, that we have tended to give the NHS increases that are higher than inflation, or at least bigger increases than we have given to local government. Those two areas are the two main parts of our budget. I asked the previous panel this question, so I might as well put it to you as well. Have we been too generous to the NHS? Should we try to give the same increases to the NHS and local government?