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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 3 July 2025
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Displaying 2867 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 28 May 2025

John Mason

I welcome the draft order. I think that it is great that we will get rid of the Glasgow Colleges Regional Board, and I am delighted that the three colleges will be separate. Can the minister say anything about collaboration between the three colleges going forward? Although I want the colleges to be independent, they will need to work together to some extent.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 May 2025

John Mason

The convener has already raised a number of issues in the financial area, and that is where I want to go. The Parliament’s website says that a financial memorandum

“should set out best estimates of the costs, savings, and changes to revenues arising from a Bill.”

However, as I understand it from Mr Mott, we do not have an estimate of the pension costs. Does that mean that you are failing to give what is normally expected from a financial memorandum?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 May 2025

John Mason

I am not here to speak for the Finance and Public Administration Committee—Mr Greer and I are on both committees—but we absolutely support the simplification of the landscape as part of our public reform work, and we do not want there to be more public bodies. If we are simplifying things, I am absolutely on board and will totally support you on that, but we still have to look at the costs. The finance committee took evidence but did not have time to go into any detail with witnesses on that, which is why I am concerned about it.

Are you looking at whether the SFC would continue with two different pension schemes, or do you assume that it would go ahead and provide the better pension scheme for everyone?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 May 2025

John Mason

If the SFC needs more powers, I, for one, am open to giving it those powers now.

I take your point that a lot of the income of universities, in particular, does not come from the public purse. On the other hand, if a university gets into difficulty, it expects the public purse to bail it out, so there is quite a big risk. I fully accept that we have to get the report in due course.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 May 2025

John Mason

I am just looking for some reassurance that a small provider getting into trouble would not hugely disadvantage learners.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 May 2025

John Mason

I take the point in your previous argument that, if it was, say, a one-off cost of £27 million or £30 million or thereabouts, it would be a one-off cost, and we could look at that spread over the years. The other argument is that £27 million just to rearrange the furniture is quite a lot of money, and that would be a factor in my deciding whether I support the bill at stage 1. I opposed Liz Smith’s Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill, on what was basically the same amount of money—£30 million.

To go into some of the detail of that, I note that the largest part seems to be pension. My understanding is that TUPE—the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations—protects staff who are transferring to another organisation so that they do not lose out, but the argument here seems to be that the staff moving should get a much better pension. I do not think that TUPE insists on them having a much better pension; it insists on them not losing out. In fact, pensions under TUPE is a bit of a grey area.

Has the Government gone through all the options? Does it have to be under TUPE? Do they have to move into the same pension fund?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 May 2025

John Mason

That suggests that the Government would be involved and that it might put a cap on the one-off cost or the transfer cost.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 May 2025

John Mason

Again, I am on board for some of those things. Every witness at the Finance and Public Administration Committee tells us that, if we spend £1 now, we will save £10 in 10 years’ time. That is all very well, but we have to find the £1 today, and you are asking us to find maybe £30 million.

You said that it is not for us to know at this stage, but I disagree. The financial memorandum is meant to provide the best estimate, but you are saying that it is not for us to know at this stage. Some of the preparatory work is about whether the SFC will have one scheme or two schemes, and we know that some staff will definitely transfer if the change goes ahead. I accept that we do not know about some areas, but I think that more work could have been done before we got to this stage.

I will move on to some other points. Earlier, financial sustainability was mentioned, as well as whether the SFC will be able to require data. It was suggested that the SFC might be able to require data in the future.

Why did the SFC not pick up the problems at Dundee university and perhaps those at other universities? Was it because it did not have the powers or because it was not using the powers that it had?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 May 2025

John Mason

I think that it was he who raised the point, but I cannot remember exactly.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 May 2025

John Mason

I do not want to get into too much detail—I just want an overall view.