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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 28 July 2025
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Displaying 2881 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform Programme

Meeting date: 30 May 2023

John Mason

We might come back to some of those points around working with other bodies later, but I am keen to bring other people in at this stage.

Garry McEwan, your organisation is also quite a new one, in a sense, and you have been looking at your structures. Will you say something about that?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform Programme

Meeting date: 30 May 2023

John Mason

Good morning and welcome to the 16th meeting in 2023 of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. The first item on our agenda is a roundtable discussion on the Scottish Government’s public service reform programme. We have eight witnesses.

I welcome to the meeting Garry McEwan, director of corporate services, Food Standards Scotland; Stuart MacQuarrie, deputy director business services and transformation, NatureScot; David Page, deputy chief officer, Police Scotland; Chris Kerr, registration and policy director, Registers of Scotland; Elaine Lorimer, chief executive, Revenue Scotland; Karen Watt, chief executive, Scottish Funding Council; Anthony Daye, director of finance and corporate resources, South of Scotland Enterprise; and Kerry Twyman, director of finance and corporate services, Transport Scotland.

I thank all those who made written submissions, which we have been reading.

When you speak, you do not need to press any buttons; the gentleman up in the corner handles all the sound for us. We have around 90 minutes for the session and the plan is for it to be a free-flowing roundtable discussion rather than a more formal system. If either a witness or a committee member would like to come in, they should indicate that to me and the clerks and we will try and bring you in. We have not split the session into themes but, if a particular theme comes up, it would be good to stick with it for a little while before we move on to something else. We want the session to be free flowing but there are 15 of us around the table and so we do not want long speeches from any of the committee members or anyone else.

I will start with Police Scotland. Your paper was quite positive about the reform that you have already seen in the police force. You are welcome to say a little bit about who you are and what your role is, as well as sharing a few points about what you feel has been positive as well as any challenges that you have faced.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform Programme

Meeting date: 30 May 2023

John Mason

That is very helpful. Some of that was quite provocative, so members will come in on some of it.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform Programme

Meeting date: 30 May 2023

John Mason

Sticking with the IT theme, I will bring in Elaine Lorimer.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform Programme

Meeting date: 30 May 2023

John Mason

Does that suggest that there are too many public agencies?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform Programme

Meeting date: 30 May 2023

John Mason

Okay—I did not want to take us off on too much of a tangent; I was simply struck by the point about the IT and the number of bodies.

Everyone wants to come in now—that is what happens halfway through the session. I will take Stuart MacQuarrie, Garry McEwan and Karen Watt first, on the IT question, and then I will come to Ross Greer, who has been waiting patiently in the background.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform Programme

Meeting date: 30 May 2023

John Mason

Do all the colleges and universities have completely different systems?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform Programme

Meeting date: 30 May 2023

John Mason

More people want to come in now.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform Programme

Meeting date: 30 May 2023

John Mason

Does David Page want to come on that as well?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform Programme

Meeting date: 30 May 2023

John Mason

That raises a wider question along the lines of the point that David Page made—and which I wanted to go back to—about the merging of the police not happening had they not been forced to do so from the centre. I therefore just wanted to ask—with my tongue perhaps a little bit in my cheek—whether there are any organisations that you think that you could merge with or take over. Indeed, do any of you think that you should be demerged into two bits instead of being just one? That question is perhaps for Anthony Daye, given that his is the newest organisation.

I should also say that we have approximately 15 minutes left. If there are any areas that you feel that we have not touched on but that we should have done, please highlight them. We have, as I think Keith Brown alluded to, spent quite a lot of time looking at what has been happening within organisations, but the question that is in my mind is all about what should come from the centre. How much should the Government say has to happen, and how much should be up to yourselves to change?

We have a bit of space here. Does anyone wish to respond to those comments or to Keith Brown’s points?