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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 27 July 2025
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Displaying 2881 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 March 2024

John Mason

It is a good example and others should follow it. The idea of having very precise figures—going down to £134 or £474—is just unrealistic, frankly. Some of the figures are clearly rounded—the SPA potential costs of £259,000, for example. The committee might disagree with me, but I think that that is the right way to do it. When it comes to a figure with £134 at the end, I would just drop the £134, because there is no way that anyone can be that accurate when they are making such forecasts. That is just my comment by way of support.

In paragraph 30 on page 9, for different organisations, you compare £10,000 materiality as a percentage of their annual budgets, which comes in at 0.001 per cent and suchlike. Would it be better to show the materiality as a percentage of the actual costs of the bill, which would be something like 2 per cent in some cases? Would that be more helpful?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 March 2024

John Mason

One of which, at least, is an immaterial saving, is that right? It sets off some of the others.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 March 2024

John Mason

At any level?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 March 2024

John Mason

That is interesting.

Finally, paragraph 107 of the financial memorandum, on page 23, talks about the PIRC making

“recommendations to the Chief Constable”.

That is under the heading “Unknown indirect costs”, so there is a lot of uncertainty in that respect. It would depend on what those costs were. The memorandum goes on to state:

“If there is a cost in implementing the recommendation then this indirect cost cannot be quantified.”

Can you give any examples of that? What might the PIRC recommend? Is it just that the variations are so wide that you cannot put a figure on it?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 March 2024

John Mason

I do not know what kind of thing the PIRC would recommend, but let us say that it was some piece of equipment such as a camera or new cars—whatever it might be. Is it just totally unpredictable as to what the PIRC might recommend?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 March 2024

John Mason

Right. So, even in a revised financial memorandum, that aspect would stay the same—it would still be unpredictable.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 March 2024

John Mason

Is there a difference in the costs involved for higher ranks and for lower ranks?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Fiscal Commission (Report on Climate Change and Fiscal Sustainability)

Meeting date: 26 March 2024

John Mason

Are you saying that the CCC is looking at what spend is needed, rather than where the spend comes from?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 March 2024

John Mason

I slightly disagree with the convener, because I agree with the idea of materiality and rounding things to £10,000 or so. That is much more realistic, and it is quite normal in accounting practice.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 March 2024

John Mason

Yes. Given that we are looking at the bill, I suppose that, for me, what makes a figure material is how it compares with what is in the bill rather than with the whole budget. I just throw that in as a point of consideration, because the percentages that are shown in paragraph 30 are tiny. They would still be small enough if they were compared with the bill. I throw that in by way of comment.

The convener touched on the cumulative effect of having a number of issues that are under £10,000 that, together, would come to more than £10,000. Would it be possible to have a line in paragraph 33, where you show the different costs, for “sundry” or “miscellaneous”, or are you not comfortable having a figure for that?