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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 17 February 2025
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Displaying 679 contributions

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Meeting of the Parliament [Draft]

Post-school Education and Skills Funding Body Landscape

Meeting date: 6 February 2025

Graeme Dey

The post-school education and skills system is already supporting the transition to net zero, but we can and must go further. The system must be able to respond at greater pace and with greater impact to meet the challenges and opportunities that the transition to net zero is placing on it. That is one reason why reform is a must and the changes are important.

Our proposals will help to make the system more responsive to the Government’s four priorities, including tackling the climate emergency. Taken together with the work on skills planning, the changes can help to deliver more green skills. For example, the bill will establish for the first time a statutory framework for apprenticeships in Scotland. That is anticipated to facilitate different and more transparent ways of funding apprenticeships. It could be used, for example, to shift the emphasis on to more or different apprenticeships that have a focus on achieving net zero.

Kevin Stewart rightly referenced colleges and universities, but I reiterate that we will have a mixed apprenticeship offering, in which private training providers will have a role.

Meeting of the Parliament [Draft]

Post-school Education and Skills Funding Body Landscape

Meeting date: 6 February 2025

Graeme Dey

We all know where this is going, but it is a bit rich for a Conservative member to rock up here today and talk about more money for colleges and universities when her party wants money for tax cuts. As I keep saying, we cannot square that circle. If Ms Gosal wants to go to a college and sympathise with officials about more funding, I hope that she would be good enough to be honest with them and say, “By the way, if we had got our way, there would be even less money available.”

Meeting of the Parliament [Draft]

Post-school Education and Skills Funding Body Landscape

Meeting date: 6 February 2025

Graeme Dey

The option was chosen because it simplifies the tertiary education system by providing clear and separate remits for our public bodies. It means that the SFC has responsibility for funding all teaching and learning provision, and SAAS has responsibility for all student support funding. It is less disruptive than moving to a single funding body, but it still takes us in the direction of what James Withers rightly called for.

The decision to proceed with the two-body approach was also based on consultation with stakeholders and the findings of the outline business case.

I will make a point that goes to some of the comments that we have heard today: changing structures alone will not deliver the reform that we all know needs to happen here. This is an enabling process that will allow us to make the changes that we require to make.

Meeting of the Parliament [Draft]

Post-school Education and Skills Funding Body Landscape

Meeting date: 6 February 2025

Graeme Dey

The role of SDS, as the national career service, will continue. Its role in the career services collaborative will change. The career services collaborative, with co-chairs, will report to ministers and deliver to a vision that ministers will set. It is quite a simple and straightforward vision.

I am looking for the component parts of the career services collaborative to all take responsibility for the delivery of careers advice. SDS delivers in schools—that is its responsibility, although it has a degree of wider responsibility—but we need to see careers advice delivered through the developing the young workforce programme, and in our colleges and universities. The challenge that will be set for all the participating members is to take forward that responsibility, delivering to a clear and agreed message.

Meeting of the Parliament [Draft]

Post-school Education and Skills Funding Body Landscape

Meeting date: 6 February 2025

Graeme Dey

I will start with the end of Mr Johnson’s question. My speech made very clear what SDS will continue to do, including providing careers advice. Far from diminishing SDS’s role in that space, I talked about an expanded role for the careers collaborative and SDS’s continuing role in employer engagement and in skills. On the point about diluting the employers’ voice, I have been very clear in the Parliament and with employers that we are expanding that role, which is why I think employers will take confidence from what we are doing. We are trying to weave the employers’ voice into absolutely everything that we do, because that is vital.

I met SAAB a few months ago. In our most recent conversation, when we talked about the future role for employers, it said that it was not precious about a structure or forum, but it wanted to be assured that the employers’ voice would continue to be heard—we intend to continue to ensure that. If the member was listening to the start of my speech, he will know that I made the point that SAAB has two committees that will continue through the process—certainly through the transition and perhaps beyond that. I anticipate that its members will be heavily involved in the work that will be taken forward.

Meeting of the Parliament [Draft]

Post-school Education and Skills Funding Body Landscape

Meeting date: 6 February 2025

Graeme Dey

Work is under way across the Government with key stakeholders to develop our approach to skills planning. For example, we are in the process of developing an advanced manufacturing skills action plan, and we will engage with the sector to assess options and agree a package of interventions aimed at increasing skills supply. We are progressing with the apprenticeship reform that we have heard about today.

As part of that work, we will look to see whether we can break down any barriers—perceived or actual—to the participation of women and girls in occupations where they are underrepresented. The changes also provide the opportunity to ensure that education and training, including apprenticeships, are readily accessible to young people with disabilities.

Meeting of the Parliament [Draft]

Post-school Education and Skills Funding Body Landscape

Meeting date: 6 February 2025

Graeme Dey

I met representatives from the chambers of commerce some time ago, but I am happy to take Willie Rennie up on his invitation.

I reassure members that the bill requires ministers to have regard to the desirability of including in the membership of the SFC persons who

“have experience of, and have shown capacity in, the provision of ... apprenticeships or work-based learning”.

That is one of the changes that the bill allows us to make. I am keen to take the opportunity that this year affords us, with changes in the membership of the SFC, to ensure that that experience is on the board. That is essential.

I have already highlighted the work that will be done around the committee experience, but I am disappointed if the chambers of commerce have paid attention to what has been going on over the past year and are still nervous. We have engaged extensively with employers and gained a lot of positive feedback from them. If there is that nervousness, I am happy to do something to address it.

Meeting of the Parliament [Draft]

Post-school Education and Skills Funding Body Landscape

Meeting date: 6 February 2025

Graeme Dey

There is a lot to unpack there. Securing non-public money for colleges is an area that we are actively engaging with the college sector on, because there is a great opportunity there. Some colleges do very well in that space and others do much less so. There is an appetite from both national and local businesses for that sort of access.

With regard to the influence that colleges can bring, we have to be careful. It is about ensuring that the employer voice is heard so that colleges and other training providers can understand what employers require colleges and other institutions to produce. That already happens in some localities but not so much in others, so we are trying to bring in a bit of standardisation on that.

I do not necessarily agree with the approach to the use of the apprenticeship levy that Miles Briggs has articulated, but, on his point about SMEs, there is undoubtedly more to be done. We repeatedly hear that one of the issues that puts SMEs off taking on an apprentice is the bureaucracy around it. We have been exploring whether there is an opportunity to do something on that to take some of the load off SMEs, because they are the bedrock of the Scottish economy.

I look forward to continuing to engage with Miles Briggs on those matters.

Meeting of the Parliament [Draft]

Post-school Education and Skills Funding Body Landscape

Meeting date: 6 February 2025

Graeme Dey

A fortnight ago, we announced progress on our plans to reform the post-school education and skills system. We announced that the Scottish Funding Council would assume responsibility for all apprenticeships, and that the Student Awards Agency Scotland would take on responsibility for further education student support. Therefore, one body, the SFC, will be responsible for funding provision for teaching, training and related activities, while another body, SAAS, will be responsible for student support. That decision was informed by what stakeholders told us through our public consultation.

Our approach is designed to put the learner at the centre. It aims to ensure that our whole education and skills system works as a single system that is easy to navigate and in which everyone takes responsibility to deliver excellence for all.

Reform is, of course, about more than the individual parts of the system; it is about the whole system working together. Yesterday, the Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) Bill was introduced in the Scottish Parliament. First and foremost, the bill will consolidate the SFC’s responsibilities for securing the provision of national training programmes, apprenticeships and work-based learning. The bill will establish, for the first time, a statutory framework for apprenticeships in Scotland, recognising the value that we place on apprenticeships and on the delivery of the First Minister’s mission to drive economic growth. It will also give ministers the power to commission the SFC to deliver new national training programmes and will mean that we can address training needs that might not otherwise be met, making it easier to ensure that programmes are aligned to the Government’s four priorities.

Furthermore, the bill will improve the SFC’s governance and how it oversees tertiary education, including by creating a greater focus on the needs and interests of learners. It will also knit together the SFC’s existing responsibilities and its new responsibilities for apprenticeships and work-based learning in a coherent way, which we hope employers will welcome.

Today is a significant milestone for tertiary education and training. The bill will enable us to move from three funding bodies to two. In our programme for government, we said that we would

“Reform the education and skills funding system so it is easier to navigate and responsive to learners and skills priorities—breaking down silos and reducing bureaucracy”.

The bill moves us closer to that.

The other half of funding body simplification is the movement of further education student support from the SFC to SAAS. That change does not require legislation, which means that we can progress at pace, and we are doing so. I make it clear that there will be no immediate change to funding arrangements for college or university students, but bringing student support responsibilities together will unlock opportunities. The change will enable new ways of administering student support, collecting data and providing coherent information and guidance to learners and institutions.

Before I go on, I thank our three public bodies—the SFC, SAAS and Skills Development Scotland—and their staff for their help in getting us to this point. I am also grateful for the input from colleges, universities, employers, training providers and others whose insights have absolutely informed our decisions.

I know that change can be unsettling. If the bill is passed, the SFC will need to evolve to encompass its expanded remit. Responsibilities for apprenticeships and national training programmes will move from SDS to the SFC. The work that SDS has done on apprenticeships has given us firm foundations on which to build, and the skills and experience of SDS staff will be invaluable in establishing the new arrangements and shaping an improved offering. A refocused SDS will continue to play a vital role in skills planning, careers advice and support for employers.

It would be remiss of me not to acknowledge the influence on our reforms of James Withers and his review, and I thank him once again for his important work.

I want to be clear about why we are doing this. First and foremost, we want to deliver the best service that we can for learners and employers. Secondly, we want to make things simpler for colleges, universities, training providers and employers. Last but not least, we have to get maximum value from every pound that we invest.

The bill makes provision for Scottish apprenticeships and work-based learning, laying the foundations for apprenticeship reform. We can take the best of what works now and change what does not. The bill will enable improvement but leave room to develop future apprenticeship policy with stakeholders.

Employer engagement is critical to all of this work, so we are building a dedicated employer network to guide it. We will sharpen the focus of the apprenticeship approvals group and the standards and frameworks group to ensure that they play a vital role in the transition process, and we will broaden employer participation at every stage across the reform landscape. The bill also includes provision for a new apprenticeship committee of the SFC and provision for apprenticeship certificates to help apprentices to demonstrate that they have gained the relevant training, experience and qualifications.

That leads me on to qualifications reform. We must have up-to-date, accessible qualifications that are fit for learners at all stages of their lives. Work is under way to fully understand the qualifications landscape in tertiary education. The qualifications must be valued by employers and learners, they must clearly signal the skills and knowledge that individuals have acquired and, crucially, they must be flexible enough to adapt to the ever-changing demands of the modern economy.

Tertiary education and training must deliver the skills that employers need and, importantly, meet our skills requirements in 21st century Scotland so that we can address net zero, support our national health service and grow a thriving Scottish economy. I have engaged extensively with ministerial colleagues across the Government and with our key stakeholders to develop our approach to skills planning, which is rooted in evidence of what works and what is needed. Tertiary education and training must be responsive to both regional and national skills needs.

A few weeks ago, I met the regional economic partnership network again, and we had a good discussion about skills planning across regions. We still have work to do, but I am pleased with the progress that we are making and the co-design approach that we are taking.

High-quality careers advice is essential to getting the right people into the right jobs, tackling poverty and growing the economy. It is vital to have that advice in schools in order to help young people to realise their potential.

We will shortly be announcing new arrangements for the career services collaborative. The outgoing interim chair Grahame Smith, the secretariat and all members of the collaborative have achieved much since its formation. Their work forms a great base for progressing to the next phase, which is, importantly, focusing on improving careers advice and support.

I have spent a good deal of time meeting stakeholders, especially employers and training providers that are engaged in apprenticeship delivery, and listening to their views as we developed our thinking. I have also engaged with a number of MSP colleagues along the way, and I am grateful for that engagement. With the bill beginning its formal processes today, I am committing to ramping up that engagement over the coming months to ensure that, if the Parliament supports the bill, we will be ready to implement the outcomes in a way that best serves the interests of our future apprentices and employers and the needs of Scotland’s economy.

Lastly, I want to work with members from all parties in the Scottish Parliament to lay the foundations for lasting reform of the kind that I think that we generally recognise is needed.

Meeting of the Parliament [Draft]

Post-school Education and Skills Funding Body Landscape

Meeting date: 6 February 2025

Graeme Dey

The member makes a good point about the nature of the landscape. There is no doubt that, as it is currently configured, we do not get the best value or the best return, partly because the system is fragmented and two different bodies are funding the same provision, in some respects. As I said before, we believe that making the changes that we have alluded to will give us the opportunity to get a hold of this and to shape the offering in a way that will be more transparent and more responsive to the needs of the economy.

Everyone says to me, “We would like more apprentices and more money for them.” That is the nature of it. No one ever says, “Minister, we’ve got enough money.” I am not going to stand here and say that we have forecast that we will be able to create X more apprentices as a result of the changes. Assuming that the Parliament agrees to the reforms, we need to use them to develop the offering in parallel, so that we will have an offering that is much better aligned to what employers are looking for and what our young people deserve. At the heart of this, we need an approach that shows that we want to give our young people long-term, sustainable and well-paid employment. If we take that alongside the point about the economy, we will make progress.