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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 18 February 2025
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Displaying 612 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 8 January 2025

Graeme Dey

There is a UK-wide issue with funding of universities. I think that a report on English universities came out this morning from the Institute for Fiscal Studies and it talks about underfunding—I think that that is the term that is used. A number is being quoted at the moment—I cannot guarantee its veracity—of 70 UK universities having to make staff cuts of between 10 and 15 per cent.

Do I think that all Governments would accept that the cost of delivering university education is higher than the funding that we are providing? I will sit here today and say yes—I do believe that. As I said earlier, we are having on-going discussions with the universities about what we will do about that, and those discussions will ramp up.

However, Willie Rennie will also recognise that neither the cabinet secretary nor I is sitting here with a magic wand. We cannot resolve the issue overnight. We are engaging and will continue to engage with him to see what we can do, but I hope that Mr Rennie, along with many in this Parliament, recognises that free tuition is a central tenet of the offering in Scotland.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 8 January 2025

Graeme Dey

Addressing skill shortages is central to all the work that we are doing in the reform space. We are trying to ensure that the offering from colleges is much better aligned with the needs of the economy than it is currently. There are many examples of colleges working closely with local employers and meeting those needs, but there are instances in which that is not happening.

We are trying to bring about reform in that space and to ensure—this relates to your point about low-paid, low-skilled jobs—that the offering to our young people through college courses and apprenticeships is improved so that they have a better chance of obtaining long-term, well-paid, sustainable employment. That is part of our overall work.

With regard to colleges, as I said earlier in response to the convener, we must look at the budget in the context of all the other work that is being done with the college sector, particularly through the tripartite group. A number of assertions have been made. One figure that has been bandied about is that the college sector will have an operating deficit of about £70 million for the current year, but, as I understand it, that does not take account of some of the measures that we have implemented.

I will give an example of what is being done, not only by the Government but by the SFC, to assist the college sector, much of which goes unseen. The colleges were facing a potential pensions deficit, which we have addressed by providing an additional £6 million. The issue of maintenance was touched on earlier. We have put in an extra £13.5 million to assist colleges to address that problem. I know of a college that, without that extra support, was facing a budget deficit of £1.25 million. It will now break even for the current financial year.

The other issue that is often not touched on—I understand why that is the case—is the recovery piece, which is commonly referred to as clawback. That is where colleges are underperforming in the context of credits allocated set against the number of students they attract. Historically, that money was recovered and brought back into the system. Over a period, not just on the cabinet secretary’s and my watch, the SFC has increasingly given flexibilities to the colleges to retain that money, to the point where, in the current financial year, only two colleges are facing clawback. That often goes unmentioned in the context of what we are doing with the colleges.

I understand that this is a challenging time for the colleges, particularly as they are trying to move into a different space that is better aligned to the needs of the economy. However, we are providing a lot of support, both directly and to the SFC, to assist them.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 8 January 2025

Graeme Dey

We have been very clear that compulsory redundancies should be a last resort and that everything else should be exhausted first. The agreement between the lecturers’ union and the employers is predicated on that position, which I have articulated many times to the colleges. Although they are not covered by a no compulsory redundancy policy, we encourage colleges to avoid them at all costs.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 8 January 2025

Graeme Dey

It is part of how we arrive at 3.5 per cent. I should point out that the sector requested that we do that.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 8 January 2025

Graeme Dey

I do not necessarily accept the premise of some of what you have said, but I respect the convener’s point about time. The universities have asked us to look at whether the SFC can provide a similar degree of flexibility. I do not think that that is an entirely unreasonable ask. A conversation has already started with the universities, which was brought about by a helpful suggestion from an individual principal. I urge caution, though. If a university has a substantial potential sum to be recovered and we do not bring some of that money back into the system, it limits the ability of the SFC to act flexibly and respond to individual asks. There is a balance to be struck. Given our relationship with the university sector and the open discussions that we have, I am not going to sit here today and rule that out, but there are limitations to what the SFC can do.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 8 January 2025

Graeme Dey

The additional support that was provided to the institutions was for a fixed three-year period. However, we recognised that there was a period, as they moved into the implementation of the student mental health action plan, when they would have to evolve their offering. We provided a further year of funding, but that has now ended. I have had conversations with individual colleges and universities and they recognise that that was going to happen and have prepared for it. However, that is not to say that they do not face significant challenges in supporting students. Of course, that is a problem across society with mental health. Universities Scotland or Colleges Scotland have not said to the Government or the SFC that there is a real crisis and that they need more money, for example. They have coped with that. I pay tribute to them, because the challenges on the ground, at the coalface, in individual institutions can be quite significant for the staff who are dealing with the situation. However, that is where we are.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 8 January 2025

Graeme Dey

Colleges are provided with additional discretionary funds for student support, which they can utilise in ways that they see fit. You make a very good point. I should have said that a large proportion of the original funding for mental health counsellors came from the health budget, if memory serves.

I hold my hands up, because I delayed the student mental health action plan. I was not happy that the right balance had been struck, in the original proposal, on whether the NHS, local boards and health and social care partnerships would take equal responsibility in that space. What we think that we have arrived at, working with both sectors, is an approach that requires the health boards and health and social care partnerships to take co-ownership of addressing the needs of those students.

We will obviously monitor how that works in practice; I am hopeful that it will work. We are all over this area—we have a stakeholder board that is monitoring it, and I look forward to its first report on how it sees that the area is being progressed. I accept that student mental health is not an easy subject, and we need to recognise the pressures that all our institutions, and our schools, face in dealing with it.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 8 January 2025

Graeme Dey

In Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire, there is an existing data-sharing protocol that does not exist in other localities. We are exploring what we could do in the short term to get around that in order to assist our universities—but there is also the longer-term piece to consider.

I am looking forward to the meeting next week. It was partly instigated by conversation with a member of the Opposition in Parliament who represents an island community—one of your colleagues, Mr Rennie—who brought to me an issue that has helped to inform our thinking.

I go back, if I may, to Mr Adam’s earlier conversation with the cabinet secretary. Beyond primary and secondary school education, it is about not just university but our offer to young people who come from deprived backgrounds and how it can capture them all.

In my space, we have been doing a couple of things in that respect. We have been looking closely at the provision that is in place to try to support young people who have not prospered in traditional education settings. We run a number of programmes in that area, and I am trying to satisfy myself that nobody is falling through the cracks in that regard.

We are also currently doing a piece of work that is looking at foundation apprenticeships and vocational offerings in schools. You are right, Mr Adam, to say that a number of schools do fantastic work in that space, but in some instances, foundation apprenticeships are being used to take disruptive pupils out of classes, and those pupils are not getting the maximum benefit from that. We have been looking closely at what we can do to enhance the offer for the cohort of pupils who would prosper through a proper foundation apprenticeship or a good vocational qualification. We are working across portfolios to try to bring all that together.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 8 January 2025

Graeme Dey

I do not entirely disagree, Mr Rennie, but I say with respect that we are well into this evidence-taking session with the committee and I have not heard any member say to the cabinet secretary or me, “Actually, you’re spending too much money on other parts of education.” There is no such thing coming forward, and it is important to highlight that.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 8 January 2025

Graeme Dey

I am simply making the point that we all want more money to be spent on every aspect of education. Of course we do—absolutely. However, there is a finite amount of money. I absolutely agree with you that a discussion needs to be had about what future financing would look like.