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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 20 September 2025
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Displaying 6078 contributions

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Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Edward Mountain

I hear your arguments, and we can agree to disagree, but I am looking for clarity, because I am trying to rally behind your amendment 56 for future debates. There is a line in it that is cause for slight concern. It talks about

“the applicant”

completing

“a training course approved under section 12E in respect of the type of trap in question”.

Does that mean a quail or a DOC trap, a Fenn trap, a self-set spring trap, a Larsen trap, a funnel trap or a cage trap, or will the trap licence cover all of them? If a gamekeeper or a moorland manager has to do a course for every single trap, they will never be able to use them, because they will still be doing the courses. Once they have completed them, they will have to start again on the next one.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Edward Mountain

When I saw the grouping, I got quite excited, because I thought that I could speak for as long as I wanted, because the grouping was so big. However, in fairness to the committee, I got some looks of shock and horror, even from the clerks, at that comment, so maybe I will not do that. I will speak to my amendments and, as I get to close, I will comment on all of the amendments in the group.

Amendment 179 is about adding a qualification to the legislation to ensure that the relevant authority should be satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that a licence should not be granted. That is just a nice form of wording to make sure that it is not decided on a whim. We are all concerned that, sometimes, the people who are responsible for issuing the licences are the judge, jury and executioner when it comes to those licences, and I do not think that that is a happy place to be.

Amendment 18 would allow the person, should they be refused a licence, to appeal it through the sheriff’s court, so that costs could be awarded to them. That seems eminently fair if it is proved that the system has let the person down and that they should get their costs back.

Convener, as I said, I could talk to all the amendments in the group. You will be pleased that I am not going to. I will sit back and take my opportunity at the end.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Edward Mountain

In line with the approach of other members, I will keep my comments short and speak only to my amendments and to those that I think are truly important.

As far as amendment 179 is concerned, I am not sure that I understand the reticence about making sure that the process is beyond criticism. By adding “beyond reasonable doubt”, we make sure that the process is beyond reasonable doubt rather than just dependent on the opinion of one person.

I have been taken by Beatrice Wishart’s argument on amendment 119. I understand why she wants to add the word “estimated”, and I also understand why Ms Hamilton might not want it to be included. However, I suspect that, on balance, the best that can be achieved is an estimate. I do not think that anyone should be frightened of supporting amendment 119.

There is a clear argument for amendment 64, in the name of Rachael Hamilton, on limiting the amount of time for which a licence can be suspended. I support Stephen Kerr’s amendments on the basis that they would add a baseline to that, so that people could understand. Rachael Hamilton’s amendment 66, which would mean that no penalties would be enforced before the appeal process was heard, is also important.

I have heard the minister’s comments that amendment 18 would put a statutory obligation on the sheriff to award costs. I will not move that amendment but I will rewrite it so that you can prepare your arguments for when it comes back at stage 3, minister—I do not doubt that you will have anticipated that coming.

On Rachael Hamilton’s amendments 161 and 162, I am deeply concerned that the minister is suggesting that the only outcome after an appeal is judicial review. Judicial review is hugely expensive.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Edward Mountain

I thank Ms Hamilton for clarifying that. It is what concerns me, too. I will not go too much into the details of a specific case, but I know of an appeal that was lodged that was heard by the same person who had made a judgment on it, which is inherently wrong.

I would like to work with the minister on one suggestion. Perhaps she could indicate whether it would be possible to work on a system that includes a level of independent arbitration when it comes to making a decision on the process. Certainly, in the past, when SNH challenged me on something, it refused my appeal, but, in arbitration, its position was overturned. Arbitration gives individuals the ability to do that at minimal cost, without having to go to judicial review or the sheriff court. I do not know whether the minister is in a position to say whether she would entertain discussions on that.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Decisions on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 30 January 2024

Edward Mountain

We also have to decide whether to consider our work programme in private at our next meeting. Do members agree to do so?

Members indicated agreement.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 30 January 2024

Edward Mountain

I hear your comment. My concern is that a lot of money has been allocated or spent and we are not near the target. We will move on to the next question, which comes from the deputy convener, Ben Macpherson.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 30 January 2024

Edward Mountain

Before you go on with answering the question, cabinet secretary, could you say a few words so that I can hear whether the interference is still there?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 30 January 2024

Edward Mountain

I am afraid that the interference is still there. I am sorry, cabinet secretary, but we are not hearing all that you want to say, so I will suspend the meeting briefly and see whether we can re-establish the connection to improve the sound.

09:46 Meeting suspended.  

09:53 On resuming—  

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 30 January 2024

Edward Mountain

That is a lot better. There is no interference.

We will go back to the question that Monica Lennon posed. Because there has been a bit of a break, could you ask it again, Monica?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 30 January 2024

Edward Mountain

Can you confirm that the climate change plan, which we are still awaiting, will have figures in it so that we can see what is required to achieve the targets that are being set?