Chamber and committees

Good morning and a very warm welcome to the 14th meeting in 2021 of the Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee. This is our first virtual committee meeting in this session of Parliament.

We have two agenda items this morning. Item 1 is our inquiry into the United Kingdom internal market. Joining us is Jonnie Hall, director of policy at NFU Scotland. Good morning, Mr Hall, and thank you very much for your written submission to the committee.

We will move straight to questions. I will open with a question about the history and development of NFU Scotland’s involvement in the internal market. In your submission, you emphasise how important it is to the NFUS to have the option of divergence to meet the needs of individual nations and to protect particular aspects of farming, but you also see the principles of mutual recognition and non-discrimination as a threat to that opportunity. So that we can understand the history, what involvement did the NFUS have in the development of policies before the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill was introduced, and at what point did you start to see the opportunity to diverge in particular areas becoming a problem?

I am looking for someone to self-nominate to come in on that question.

I have another follow-up question on glyphosate. It was given as an example of where the keeping-pace powers would be of concern to you. However, the Welsh Government has committed to the keeping-pace powers and the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland says that Northern Ireland will implement any measures coming from Europe. Is it not more likely that, currently, any divergence would be between England and the other three devolved nations, not between Scotland and the rest of the UK? I ask that in the context of the work that you mentioned that your office in Brussels does with your counterparts from other countries.

As long as you hear us, that is the main thing.

We as a devolved Parliament have had a very good relationship with Europe and, as you mentioned, there has been a lot of co-operation between our predecessor committees and Europe in the past. The situation was simpler when we were aligned with and part of the European Union. As a committee that scrutinises the Government, we are, obviously, concerned about the level of scrutiny that there is and how we might be able to work with the European Union to ensure transparency around the TCA decisions. Do you have any light to shine on how we might be able to work with the Committee on Foreign Affairs in order to do that scrutiny?

As you may know, I wrote a report for the committee’s predecessor, in which I looked at how certain regions and countries engage with the EU. There are a number of good examples. The Basque Country comes to mind as a region that is involved as part of an EU member state. It is well known in Brussels for its successes in industry 4.0, in vocational training and in advanced manufacturing through its smart specialisation strategy. People in the EU institutions may often listen to what the Basque Country has to say on those issues. It is an area where the Basques have developed, if not niche expertise, certainly a profile for themselves in Brussels and they focus on that. I would say that they are successful—[Inaudible.]

Good morning and a warm welcome to the 13th meeting in 2021 of the Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee. We have received apologies from Donald Cameron.

Our first agenda item is the continuation of our inquiry into the Scottish Government’s international work. Today, we will hear from our second panel on the topic. We are joined by Anthony Salamone, managing director of European Merchants, and Dr Fabian Zuleeg, chief executive and chief economist at the European Policy Centre. I welcome you both to the meeting and thank Mr Salamone for his submission.

We will move straight to questions. I have a couple of opening questions. Dr Zuleeg, in your briefing for the previous session’s Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee’s legacy report, you stated:

“the representation of Scottish interests in the EU will be crucial for businesses but also at a policy level. Paradoxically, leaving the European Union will require a higher degree of investment into these relationships, as Scotland has lost the automatic right to be at the table, which it previously enjoyed via the UK as a member state.”

I would be interested to hear your views on how open the European Union will be to engaging directly with the Scottish Government. What do you think will be the main challenges in representing Scottish interests in the EU?

I guess that today’s theme is:

O, wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!

I quote Burns specifically because there is cultural diplomacy around all this. No matter how we feel about the shortbread view Scotland, this is about much more than that.

I see challenges ahead in our role in scrutinising the issues. The PPA is coming as a result of the agreement between the EU and Westminster, but the Scottish Parliament will have no formal role in that body. We are empowered under the Scotland Act 1998 to scrutinise our own Government’s involvement, but the Scottish Government will say that it has no formal involvement in the TCA at this stage. That presents a scrutiny challenge for us because we have no power to scrutinise the UK Government.

The common frameworks are still under development. The uncertainty around those, and around Executive power, is, to my mind, one of the challenges that we face currently. How should we do that engagement if the Executive power is used in an area in which a power has come back to the UK from Europe but is part of the devolved settlement? We might see the UK taking a different turn. I would be interested in your comments on those areas.

Unsurprisingly, I would consider us to be staunchly European in our outlook. Having served in this Parliament for 10 years, I would say that we have engaged with Europe. However, given what we are hearing today, much more could be done.

I know that the Scottish Government has committed to Erasmus, but are our institutions seen as key partners in Europe? Are our universities still involved in horizon Europe research? If I look at the Scottish Government’s priorities for the economy, for space technology and for life sciences, is it recognised that we are able to contribute to those areas? Another area is fintech, in which there is a lot of investment in Edinburgh. Is there any recognition by the EU of developments in the key strategic areas for Scotland?

That is probably enough to ask at the moment, so I will go to Mr Salamone first and then to Fabian Zuleeg.

Oh, dear. We lost you for a moment there, Dr Zuleeg. Have you concluded your comments?

Mr McAllister, thank you very much for your attendance. Your points about visits and personal contact are well made. You might be interested to know that, in the previous session of the Parliament, as convener of the Education and Skills Committee, I visited Hanover to see the science, technology, engineering and mathematics expo that is put on every two years for pupils from everywhere in Lower Saxony. That was an incredible experience, and your colleagues in Hanover made me very welcome.

We will take from what you have said some possibilities going forward. I am sure that you will see more of us in the coming months and years. Thank you for your attendance this morning.

Thank you very much. Other committee members will now ask questions.