Chamber and committees

That is interesting, but what stick do we need to deploy to get a property owner even to clean their building? I have tried several times, and found that the owners have refused point blank. We have amenity notices, but they are not used widely because, ultimately, the responsibility falls back on the council if it serves such a notice and the work is not done. What on earth can we do? Some buildings are covered in graffiti or have posters stuck on them, and there are weeds growing out of pavements and doorways and so on. How do we tackle that kind of thing, with whatever carrot and whatever stick we have at our disposal?

Thank you for that, because it leads me on to my second question. We have heard how in urban settings—not just in Kilmarnock but in any town in Scotland—there are difficulties with empty and derelict shops, buildings and land, and with abandonment. Most of that stuff is in private ownership. Do we have sufficient powers to deal with that issue? Indeed, is that the right way of going about it?

There are several buildings and shops in the town of Kilmarnock, which I represent, that it is proving almost impossible to get the managing agents even to clean. Some people seem to prefer to retain ownership of the properties while doing nothing to improve their look or feel, and that contributes to the overall sense of decay in the town centre. How do we turn that around? How do we engage with those owners, agents and others and get them to take a stake in this and be part of the redevelopment of towns? Professor Hague, do you have any views to offer on that?

Thank you, that was helpful.

The issue of resourcing has been mentioned a couple of times. I will pick on Robbie Calvert, as he mentioned it. Yesterday, we had an online visit to Kilmarnock and heard from local officials and colleagues in the Celebrate Kilmarnock team who have been doing great work down there to create new public spaces for the community to enjoy. Many of those achievements are the sort of thing that are contained in NPF4, although obviously it is not finalised. They were achieved through town centre regeneration funding and some common good money, for example.

I just want to make the point that, alongside a document such as NPF4, we do not always need to have a huge great capital investment programme. As has been demonstrated in Kilmarnock, some things can be achieved through other means. Do you recognise that local authorities and communities have other means at their disposal to deliver such achievements?

During yesterday’s discussion, we also heard about the difficulties that towns such as Kilmarnock—or just about any town in Scotland, really—have in dealing with empty or derelict shops and buildings and abandoned pieces of land in the urban setting. I direct this question to Barbara Cummins. Many of those buildings and shops are in private ownership. My constituents ask me why public money should be spent on rescuing properties that blight our town centres, many of them having been deliberately left in a near-abandoned and ruined state. If we are serious about the NPF4 allowing us to turn that around, the private sector needs to have a role in making a contribution to the strategy. Do you recognise that point and do you agree with it?

Good morning, panel. I hope that you heard the discussion with the previous panel, because I want to touch base with you on the three issues that I raised then: first, how we fund this and engage the private sector in some of this work; secondly, how we strengthen our powers with regard to derelict shops and buildings in the urban landscape; and thirdly, how we redevelop our town centres in light of increasing problems with flood risk assessments.

My first question is perhaps for Caroline Brown. Yesterday, we spoke to the local people in the Celebrate Kilmarnock team and some council officials and members about the work that they are doing down in Kilmarnock, and the fact is that many of their achievements have happened without the NPF4 being in place. This is a question about funding and support, because they have achieved those things through town centre regeneration funding and common good money. As I understand it, though, there has been no private sector contribution. How do we open all this up and better embrace and engage with the private sector? After all, they, too, have a stake in the redevelopment and success of town centres. Do you have any ideas about how we can reach out and do that sort of thing better?

I also namechecked Christina Gaiger. What can we do about the problem? We cannot just leave sites in our town centres that are near rivers—particularly brownfield sites—because we think that they might flood. We have to do more. What can you suggest?

How do we reach out to the private sector and get it on board with plans? I do not think that people in the private sector are sitting reading NPF4. How do we get them around the table, and how do we get them to make a contribution?

Absolutely.

Professor Sparks, I invite you to respond to my third question. You might have heard me say that, in its local development plans, East Ayrshire Council finds it difficult to repurpose or reuse for housing or anything else, brownfield sites that are adjacent to rivers because of the flood risk, which seems to be on the increase. Do you have any thoughts about how we could overcome that? It will certainly not be done in the short term but, if we are serious about the success of NPF4, regenerating towns and building for communities, we need to solve that problem with inner urban redevelopment. How do we possibly marry NPF4 and flood risk assessment to give town centres some hope of recovery post Covid and post anything else?