Chamber and committees

I was fortunate to come in when that work was quite well progressed. A lot of work had already taken place on resetting the relationship, which is what the new deal is about.

One of the biggest issues—Councillor Hagmann talked about this—was building trust between COSLA and the Scottish Government. That has to be a two-way thing. Both of our democratic electoral mandates have to be respected. Sometimes in the past, we forgot that the other side had a mandate, too. Sometimes local government maybe does not recognise the mandate that the Scottish Parliament has in some areas, and sometimes we forget that our councillors were democratically elected by their electorate in their elections. One really important thing is respecting our two mandates and that both spheres of government have a mandate. Sometimes that is in shared areas; it is clear that there are areas in which the Scottish Government and local government both have a mandate. We need to build trust in order to do what we all want to do, which is to deliver on the three shared priorities for all our citizens.

A pretty significant advance was that all six political groups in COSLA—Scottish Labour, the Scottish Conservatives, the Scottish Liberal Democrats, the independent group, the Scottish National Party and the Scottish Green Party—were able to sign up to agreeing that the three priorities of tackling poverty, particularly child poverty, transforming the economy through a just transition to net zero, and delivering sustainable public services were things that they would all prioritise, putting party politics aside and recognising that those were areas on which we could work together across the parties and the two spheres of government in Scotland.

That is our starting point, and we are developing that. We are improving trust. That is a big change compared with how we worked in the past. In passing legislation, whether that was a Government bill or a member’s bill, the Scottish Parliament would ask COSLA, “What is this going to cost to deliver, because you’re going to be delivering it? You get no say on it.” That was the extent of the consultation with local government.

I hope that there will now be much earlier discussion between the Scottish Government and our local government partners in COSLA. One thing that the Parliament needs to work out is how, with members’ bills or members’ amendments, across the Parliament, we all respect local government’s democratic mandate and how—this will be more difficult—back-bench members’ amendments or members’ bills can involve the same level of collaboration with local government while the different democratic places that we come from are respected.

We need to show how desirable it is to work in local government and how it is, in a number of fields, a rewarding career path to take. We have lost that a bit, but COSLA and a range of partners are making a huge effort to highlight where there are real opportunities, particularly for young people, to progress to those careers and to have a sense of pride in what they are delivering for wider society.

No. The statistics have been published. The latest statistics, which were published on 12 September, show that there has been a very slight increase in staff numbers for local government over the past year. That might be due, in part, to some of the additional things that local government is doing—early learning provision, for example—so you would expect to see an increase.

The statistics across public services have been published, and it might be useful to share those with the committee.

They were published on 12 September. They cover the NHS, for example, where there has been a significant increase, as we would expect. In the devolved civil service, there has been a slight decrease. There has been a very slight increase in the figure for local government, but it is pretty flat.

Both things can be true, because, as Councillor Hagmann indicated, individuals’ experiences in an area where there have been difficulties with recruitment due to Brexit or shifts in ways of working can make it feel as though there has been a cut, because there has been a reduction in staff in a particular area.

The figures that are published are overall figures, as is appropriate, but the experience on the ground for someone in an area where there has been a shift of people away might suggest that there has been a reduction. I do not think that anybody is coming to you with untruths; they are just expressing what they are seeing on the ground, which, as Councillor Hagmann said, might vary.

The numbers are slightly up.

Whatever the constitutional situation is, we should step back and ask what we are trying to achieve. If we can achieve what we are trying to achieve without going down what would almost certainly be a challenging constitutional battle line, we should try to do that, because local authorities want those additional powers as soon as possible. My message to leaders across Scotland is that, if they have ideas, let us test them out. If the challenge is that the situation cannot be resolved without having that power, we will need to look at that. I do not think that I have seen anything where that has been the case—I do not know whether Ian Storrie is aware of anything—but, if there are issues, we need to look at them.

If we are looking at whether there is one magic power that makes everything okay, looking down south does not appear to be the answer. Twenty-six councils in some of England’s most deprived areas are at risk of effective bankruptcy, including those in Birmingham, Slough, Croydon and Woking. Clearly, there is something not right there. If there are lessons to be learned, that is great, but I am not sure that any one sweeping power will allow us to resolve some of the challenges.

The secret for us is to make sure that we work in collaboration and with respect. That gives us the opportunity to make a difference on the ground in a shorter time than would be the case with what could be a constitutional battle.

Despite the real-terms increases that were allocated to local government and several other public services this year, it is unquestionably the case that the pressures on our local authorities and other public services are unsurpassed. Such high levels of in-year inflation have not been experienced in my memory—not since I was very young. There was nothing that we could have done to plan for that, so that pressure is there. Our public services have done an amazing job to manage that in a way that protects the most important services, but let us not pretend that it is all apple pie; it is not. It has been really challenging this year in particular. We face significant in-year increases because of inflation, high energy costs and higher-than-expected pay settlements. Money to address those things has to be allocated from this year’s funds, so there is unquestionably a real challenge there.

That is partly why we are looking at further flexibilities for local government, but one of the things that we need to do is look at how we can empower local government to raise more of its own funds. That is a wider discussion. When I have gone around the country speaking to council leaders, I have encouraged them to think about what works for them.

It is absolutely clear that some ideas are coming through Parliament, such as the visitor levy and the proposal around second properties. Those will work for some local authorities but not for others, so we need to be open to the idea of listening. Obviously, there is a working group within COSLA that Councillor Hagmann co-chairs. There are 32 local authorities, and there might be other ideas out there. A local authority might come up with an idea that it thinks is bespoke to it but which another local authority says is useful for it, too. We need to be open to that if we want to have the public services that we all aspire to have.

It remains the Government’s view that we need to continue to make sure that we apply our limited resources across public services in such a way as to achieve the best possible results for our citizens, and that we need to continue to look at ways of doing things more efficiently and effectively. Flexibilities in local government to make sure that they can do things differently, if appropriate, are part of that. I guess that is where that sits. Nonetheless, we have managed to provide additional funds to local government in recent years.