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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 7 November 2025
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Displaying 2295 contributions

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Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 March 2024

Bob Doris

Are you saying that the general principle is correct but that there needs to be clarity on where the liability sits, given that the advice sector might offer advice and then act on the instructions of clients, regardless of whether they follow the advice that was offered, and that account needs to be taken of whether there has been a direct financial benefit to the individual or organisation concerned after an overpayment has been made?

In other words, the underlying principle is okay, but the provisions need to be set out more clearly. I do not want to put words in your mouth, but we are considering whether the bill needs to be beefed up or made clearer. Is that what you are saying?

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 March 2024

Bob Doris

Is there a general consensus among the witnesses that that is the case, or do others have views that are contrary to that or additional comments to make?

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 March 2024

Bob Doris

I can see nodding heads—in the room, anyway. Would anyone online like to come in?

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 March 2024

Bob Doris

It is helpful to have some real-life examples of how the provision will have to be applied in practice, so I appreciate that.

I will move on. I will turn back the clock slightly to talk about redeterminations and appeals. I suppose that this question is for Jon Shaw, because the issue was raised in CPAG’s written evidence. The bill will allow for a review of a decision on overpayment liability. The legislation refers to a review, but, Mr Shaw, I think that your organisation refers to a redetermination. Are those just different words for the same thing?

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 March 2024

Bob Doris

That is very helpful, because I now realise that there is a very clear difference between reviews and redeterminations, which I was not aware of. Thank you for that, Mr Shaw.

If there is a review, is it unclear whether that will still progress to an appeal if that review is not successful for the individual? Is that one of the more substantive issues in relation to why redeterminations and reviews are different? I just want the committee to be clear on that point. I am sorry if I have not understood correctly, Mr Shaw, but I want to tease out the importance of a redetermination as opposed to a review.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 March 2024

Bob Doris

It is always helpful to get a real-life example, because it makes the situation real rather than our just dealing with dusty legislation, if you like. Was that repayment figure requested by Social Security Scotland?

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 March 2024

Bob Doris

Given that Mr Shaw has set out priorities for using the greater flexibility in the bill and the provision for a stand-alone benefit, I will direct my question to him.

The Scottish child payment is not about providing more money; it is about providing greater flexibilities, which might require more money. Will you say a little bit more about the cliff edge, not just in relation to universal credit but in relation to better-off calculations for people? They might lose their entitlement to universal credit because they increase their hours of work or get into full-time employment. Does that mean a hard landing for some families, and is there a disincentive for some people to go into work because there is no taper or roll-on in relation to Scottish child payment levels as folk get employment or go into full-time employment?

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 March 2024

Bob Doris

—and there is an issue of whether a threshold would be in the bill or whether the bill would provide the power for an income threshold to be set at a later date, on the basis that secondary legislation could amend the income threshold, as appropriate. However, I am conscious that any agreed income threshold might be a bit arbitrary. There are other things that might be happening in an individual’s life that must also be taken into account. Are you wedded to an income threshold? If so, should that be in the bill? Might more meaningful guidance also be a way round that situation?

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 March 2024

Bob Doris

That is helpful. Thank you.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 March 2024

Bob Doris

It is the legislative basis that we are scrutinising rather than the policy positions once that legislative basis has been changed, but that is very helpful.