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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 27 July 2025
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Displaying 2048 contributions

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Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 March 2024

Bob Doris

Are you saying that the general principle is correct but that there needs to be clarity on where the liability sits, given that the advice sector might offer advice and then act on the instructions of clients, regardless of whether they follow the advice that was offered, and that account needs to be taken of whether there has been a direct financial benefit to the individual or organisation concerned after an overpayment has been made?

In other words, the underlying principle is okay, but the provisions need to be set out more clearly. I do not want to put words in your mouth, but we are considering whether the bill needs to be beefed up or made clearer. Is that what you are saying?

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 March 2024

Bob Doris

Is there a general consensus among the witnesses that that is the case, or do others have views that are contrary to that or additional comments to make?

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 March 2024

Bob Doris

I can see nodding heads—in the room, anyway. Would anyone online like to come in?

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 March 2024

Bob Doris

It is helpful to have some real-life examples of how the provision will have to be applied in practice, so I appreciate that.

I will move on. I will turn back the clock slightly to talk about redeterminations and appeals. I suppose that this question is for Jon Shaw, because the issue was raised in CPAG’s written evidence. The bill will allow for a review of a decision on overpayment liability. The legislation refers to a review, but, Mr Shaw, I think that your organisation refers to a redetermination. Are those just different words for the same thing?

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 March 2024

Bob Doris

That is very helpful, because I now realise that there is a very clear difference between reviews and redeterminations, which I was not aware of. Thank you for that, Mr Shaw.

If there is a review, is it unclear whether that will still progress to an appeal if that review is not successful for the individual? Is that one of the more substantive issues in relation to why redeterminations and reviews are different? I just want the committee to be clear on that point. I am sorry if I have not understood correctly, Mr Shaw, but I want to tease out the importance of a redetermination as opposed to a review.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 March 2024

Bob Doris

It is always helpful to get a real-life example, because it makes the situation real rather than our just dealing with dusty legislation, if you like. Was that repayment figure requested by Social Security Scotland?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 5 March 2024

Bob Doris

That is really helpful.

I apologise if I sound like a pedant, but the idea of “losing” money is open to interpretation. If passengers were not using the buses, the bus companies would not get any money. Perhaps we should talk about the bus companies not maximising their income, rather than about them losing money. Is that an appropriate alternative way of using the terminology?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 5 March 2024

Bob Doris

I think I have been kicking around the Parliament for too long, because I remember Stewart Stevenson—in a previous incarnation of your current role, minister—outlining the situation.

I want to clarify something. First, thank goodness there is a cap, because we have to protect the public purse—that is a positive, not a negative, thing. However, my understanding is that, if we reach that cap and we get the data, no service will be impacted. What will happen is that we will get the data for the next round of negotiations on setting the budget for the next concessionary travel scheme. Reaching the cap will inform the data for the next discussions that we have with bus operators, rather than put at risk any bus service, anywhere. Is that the situation?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 5 March 2024

Bob Doris

Thank you.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 5 March 2024

Bob Doris

I was thinking about Ms Lennon saying that she was not yet born when the Education (Scotland) Act 1980 was enacted. Unfortunately, I was certainly born at that point, but I will gloss over that.

In my head, I hear the mantra of “no better off, no worse off”, which we have heard a lot about today. The budget for 2024-25 is putting £370 million into concessionary fares for private bus companies. There is also the network support grant, which we have just heard about. There is massive investment from the public purse into private bus companies. That is important to put on the record.

Of course, it is incumbent upon us to ask whether that is the most effective way of using that money. Minister, if we could find a guaranteed way—without undermining the eligibility of the existing concessionary schemes—of using that quantum of cash more effectively to better run the Scottish bus network, would the Government give consideration to that?