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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 27 July 2025
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Displaying 2048 contributions

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Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Natural Capital Finance

Meeting date: 26 March 2024

Bob Doris

Thank you. I apologise for cutting you off, Mr Young.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Natural Capital Finance

Meeting date: 26 March 2024

Bob Doris

It is always dangerous to ask a question when I am not quite clear on the context. You mention return. Is there a yield on that? Can you quantify it in percentage terms? Would 5 per cent be an impressive yield for such a financial investment? What are we looking at? I get that investors might want to do the right thing, but there is a financial imperative—they want to make money.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Natural Capital Finance

Meeting date: 26 March 2024

Bob Doris

Thank you. Mr Young wants to come in.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Natural Capital Finance

Meeting date: 26 March 2024

Bob Doris

This question almost takes us full circle back to my first line of questioning. I referred to investment in trading in carbon from 2018-19 to 2022-23. More than £3 million was invested in woodland in 2018-19, and the figure was £9.5 million in 2022-23. There were similar figures for peatland—investment rose from £19,000 to £1.6 million. Those are still relatively small figures, but we can see the increasing trend. I do not fully understand the numbers, but I can see the pattern in them.

During other lines of questioning, prior issues units—I apologise if I have got the terminology wrong—were mentioned. That got me thinking about the pipeline of future investment. Is that the best way to think about PIUs? We have estimates for each year, but lurking behind those is potential investment for future years. I want to be sure that that is what is meant by PIUs. Have I understood them properly? How can the committee see what potential future investment is lurking positively in the background, so that we can see the pipeline of potential investment based on incentives that might or might not be given and those kinds of things? Have I understood that correctly, Mr Paterson?

10:30  

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Natural Capital Finance

Meeting date: 26 March 2024

Bob Doris

Right. Maybe I have misunderstood things. I just wanted to make sure that there was not something that the committee should be looking at. We cannot track such investment. We cannot say that, in the next five years, we estimate that there will be investment of X, Y and Z based on what a future pipeline of investment might look like. Does that not exist in a public forum?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Natural Capital Finance

Meeting date: 26 March 2024

Bob Doris

Therefore, although the trend is upwards, it is all still at a relatively modest level.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Natural Capital Finance

Meeting date: 26 March 2024

Bob Doris

I do not wish to make things more complicated than they have to be. I think that what I am hearing from you is that some of the yield will be in, for example, year 5, year 10, year 15 , year 20 and so on, and that those investing can take some of that yield now by selling PIUs on to others, which will allow them to do some of the work that must be done. This might be overly simplistic, but are PIUs a way of getting money out in the early years for gains that will come in future years? Have I got that bit right?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Natural Capital Finance

Meeting date: 26 March 2024

Bob Doris

I know that that is a very simplistic way of looking at it. In that case, I have a different question. Sorry about that, convener.

I am sorry that the witnesses do not have in front of them the table that I am looking at. I suppose that we will soon have estimates for 2023-24 under the woodland and peatland carbon codes. However, no one is citing what future investments might look like. If we were talking about housing, for example, we would know that there was £X million-worth of investment in the background, how many units that might represent, what the yield might look like and so on. How can we track what future investment might look like? Is that quantified anywhere?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Natural Capital Finance

Meeting date: 26 March 2024

Bob Doris

Okay. I appreciate your trying to answer that question as best you could, based on what I was asking you.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Natural Capital Finance

Meeting date: 26 March 2024

Bob Doris

I think that it is fair to say that members will be on a learning curve for some of this.

What levels of activity are there in natural capital finance in Scotland, and what impact is that having on land use? Convener, I have a supplementary question, which I will roll in due to time constraints, so that I do not have to come in twice on the same point.

My questions are about current levels of activity and the impact that that is having on land use. It would also be interesting for anyone who is watching the session to get an idea of your organisation’s interest in the sector, to give a context to your evidence. Perhaps Stuart Greenwood could start.