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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 15 March 2026
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Displaying 724 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Scottish Fire and Rescue Service

Meeting date: 4 February 2026

Jamie Hepburn

I have questions based on the helpful written submission that you provided. I will also ask about your process, because I am interested in understanding it better.

You talked about holding public engagement events in areas that might be impacted by the review. I appreciate that you might not be able to answer this off the top of your head, so you might have to follow up in writing, but my question is: where were they? I presume that you did not mention them all. What was the rationale for choosing those specific locations? Were they areas of primary concern, for example, or was there another reason?

10:45

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Scottish Fire and Rescue Service

Meeting date: 4 February 2026

Jamie Hepburn

I think that we are just straying a bit wider here. You have already covered a lot of that territory, and what you have said is understood. I am trying to understand where these events were. It might be an unfair question, given that you might not have the detail in front of you; in that case, can we get that detail on where the public engagement events were? I think that it would be useful for us to understand that.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Scottish Fire and Rescue Service

Meeting date: 4 February 2026

Jamie Hepburn

Yes—you have given the example of Kerrera. In your written submission, you made the point again that you are concerned that no information was forthcoming about how new retained firefighters would be recruited or new crews would be established.

I recognise that you are not going to be able to roll off a list of stations off the top of your head. As much as we have to consider the issue in the strategic sense, it also comes down to specifics. The reason I ask is so that we can have some understanding, if not of the specific set of stations then of the broad criteria—which you have alluded to before, in the case of Kerrera—for how you might tell that something might not be sustainable or might not be able to be kept. It would be useful to understand that. Are you able to follow up on that?

This is about context and understanding the issues better. In your written submission, you talk about the most recent incident statistics, which were published on 30 October last year, and you state:

“non-fatal fire casualties for 2024/25 were 1,069, up 30.8%.”

Obviously that is a concerning figure, but it is not placed in context. Is it up 30.8 per cent from the year before or is it a longer-term trend?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Scottish Fire and Rescue Service

Meeting date: 4 February 2026

Jamie Hepburn

I have a few questions—I am just making that clear at the outset.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Scottish Fire and Rescue Service

Meeting date: 4 February 2026

Jamie Hepburn

I am asking whether the process could be slightly longer, yes.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Scottish Fire and Rescue Service

Meeting date: 4 February 2026

Jamie Hepburn

You were doing a good job of working your way through that list—we nearly got there. Having those details would be useful, though.

I have a follow-up question. Again, you have already touched on this, but in your submission you say that you welcome some of the benefits of the 23 change options. That might feed into John McKenzie’s point that we cannot just say, “It’s aye been, so we can’t change the service.”

Colin, you were quite specific when you gave the example of Kerrera as a station that you would probably consider to be not sustainable and one that you would not retain—if you will pardon the pun. Can you say more about the stations that you would concede will probably not be kept over the longer term?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Scottish Fire and Rescue Service

Meeting date: 4 February 2026

Jamie Hepburn

I appreciate that there has to be space for the union and the service to talk about those things. I should make clear that I am not advocating for Kerrera fire station to close—it is just that the example was proffered previously. It is not so much about understanding specific locations, but it would be helpful to understand the process and rationale from the union’s perspective, even if we receive that later.

I have one final question. The written submission refers to the online scoring system that was used at the event in Stirling. It sets out that attendees were not able to see any of the final scores and, therefore, were unable to scrutinise the process. It might be an imponderable, because you did not necessarily see the final scores, but could you set out what practical difference it would have made had you had a better line of sight?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Scottish Fire and Rescue Service

Meeting date: 4 February 2026

Jamie Hepburn

I think that we would need to pick that up with the next panel.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Scottish Fire and Rescue Service

Meeting date: 4 February 2026

Jamie Hepburn

I prefer to call someone what they want to be called, but let us just move on. [Laughter.]

You mentioned that the timescale for making a final decision is determined by the governance process, and you suggested that we might need to pick that up with the minister. I think that I am following what you said, but I want to clarify, because it is important.

Pauline McNeill made the reasonable point that the successor committee might want to ask further questions in advance of a decision. I accept that we are not part of the formal decision-making process, but we represent constituents who are impacted. Presumably, it would be in scope for the board to say that it might have a slightly longer process, which would enable that questioning—although I am not suggesting punting the matter into the long grass.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Scottish Fire and Rescue Service

Meeting date: 4 February 2026

Jamie Hepburn

I am only trying to understand the process.