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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 1 July 2025
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Displaying 376 contributions

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Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

That is an unknown unknown. [Laughter.]

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

That is a good question, and it might be the most difficult one that we have to grapple with as we consider the bill. It reflects the point that I made at the outset. The electoral system for this place is unique in these islands, as no one else uses the additional member system or the d’Hondt formula for the allocation of regional members.

Our starting premise must be the principle that we have parity once people have been elected. How they were elected should not make any difference to the rights and privileges that they have or the esteem in which they are held. However, it is possible that the process could recognise that members are elected through different processes. That is a matter of fact, as you set out. It is about getting the right balance. For the system to be viewed as being as fair as we can make it, there should be parity. However, that is balanced against the reality that we are elected in different ways.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

I am sure that it will be informed by the evidence that you gather, convener.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

No.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

That is a good question. Secrecy is generally something that we tend to try to avoid, but the principle of the secret ballot—a person’s right to go and cast their vote without anyone else knowing how they have voted—is an important part of our electoral system. Clearly, secrecy is not enabled by the recall process at Westminster and it would not be enabled under the bill either, if I have read it correctly, given that people would go to sign the petition. The committee has to consider that.

I have seen some evidence proffered on that point. For example, the Electoral Commission has made recommendations in the context of the Westminster system on whether people should be able to go and sign a petition to say that they do not believe that the member should be recalled. That would raise other questions about how we would factor that in. Would it mean that there would have to be a balance between those who said that the member should be recalled and those who said that they should not? The approach would at least have the virtue of allowing people to go and take part without others knowing how they have responded. However, I caveat that answer by saying that the Government has not taken a specific view on the matter.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

We do not have an opinion on that per se, but we flag up in our memorandum that it would be useful to explore and understand why those thresholds are proposed in the bill. We understand that they could be justified on the basis of the manner in which regional MSPs are elected, which is calculated and predicated on the number of constituency seats that their party has—if they are standing as a party candidate. We have had independent members elected through the regional system, but I put that to one side for a moment. Most of us are elected to this place on a party ticket, and in that situation the constituencies come into play.

We have observed that there are also subdivisions of constituencies. I am a representative of a constituency that has multiple polling districts. I guess that the question is why a threshold should not have to be reached in a certain number of polling districts as well as the overall threshold being reached. However, we do not have a view on that. We only suggest it as a question that the committee might like to explore.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

That would be an area of concern. I go back to the fundamental point that there should be transparency in campaign finances. The Scottish Elections (Representations and Reform) Act 2025, some of which we will discuss under the next agenda item, touches on areas of campaign finance. At the time when the bill that became that act was being considered, I was clear that transparency is the fundamental issue in that regard, but there are also issues about limits on expenditure. It becomes a question of fairness. Although we do not have a view on the specifics, I can safely say that the matter is an area of general concern.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

My understanding is that that does include remote attendance, although I think that it can differ from one local authority to the next, because it is not prescribed in law. Therefore, a lot of these things come down to each authority’s standing orders, but that is a whole other debate.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

I will answer that question, but, first, I will pick up on your perspective that the bill should contain a non-exhaustive list of legitimate reasons for not physically attending the Parliament. That is a legitimate suggestion. I suppose that my slight caution in relation to that is that any legislation must be interpreted by the courts, and you start to get into the area of why some things were prescribed and other things were not. Again, that is just a question that needs to be considered.

Privacy is an area of concern, and I am not sure that there is any way around that. If a person is not here and it becomes recognised that they are not here and that they have permission to not be here—because they will not then fall foul of the requirement—people will inevitably speculate or ask questions about why that might be. If we are going to embed this requirement as part of the process, I do not know whether there is any way around that.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

I think that we would need to come back to you on that.