Chamber and committees

I have nothing else to add, convener.

Amendment 46 agreed to.

Amendment 47 moved—[Jamie Hepburn]—and agreed to.

Section 41, as amended, agreed to.

Sections 42 to 44 agreed to.

Section 45—Boundaries Scotland: changing date of next review of local government wards and number of councillors

I am aware that there is a substantial number of amendments in this group, but they are fairly straightforward, so I should not take too long.

I ask the committee to support the amendments in the group, which provide for the Electoral Management Board for Scotland to be constituted as a body corporate, including the required adjustment to the funding model.

The EMB has been successful in supporting the smooth running of elections in Scotland as a statutory committee, and these amendments will mean that it is accountable directly to the Scottish Parliament. That will consolidate its independence and build on its strengths.

The amendments reflect the points that were made to the committee by the convener of the EMB at stage 1, as well as the committee’s recommendations. They also provide for two depute conveners, and the rules for membership and staffing are fully set out in a new schedule to the Local Electoral Administration (Scotland) Act 2011. Provision is also made for the EMB to submit to Parliament a five-year plan on its activities and for ministers to be able to ask the EMB to consider specific issues. That could, for example, include matters around spoilt ballot papers and the script that is used at polling stations. The new framework has been developed with the support of the convener of the EMB and parliamentary officials.

I acknowledge the remarks that were made by the convener of the EMB in a letter that was sent to the committee last week. The convener of the board questioned the policy of allowing electoral professionals from elsewhere in the UK to be members of the EMB. I want to make clear that the amendments in no way require returning officers or electoral registration officers from other parts of the UK to be, by necessity, appointed as members of the EMB. The amendment merely expands the possible pool of candidates. Paragraph 2(5) of the new schedule that is added by amendment 51 is designed to ensure that the membership as a whole still has Scottish experience. It states:

“When appointing members, the convener is to have regard to the desirability of the membership taken as a whole having a broad range of experience in relation to—

(a) different local authority areas (including different kinds of areas) throughout Scotland, and

(b) the different constituencies and regions provided for Scottish parliamentary elections”.

Although the pool is made bigger, the convener will still have to appoint a board that, taken together, has relevant Scottish experience.

I am grateful for the input of the EMB in pulling together these amendments, which will give rise to a new chapter for the EMB and ensure that it is even better equipped with regard to the running of elections in Scotland—elections in whose results the voter can have full confidence.

I move amendment 49.

Amendment 49 agreed to.

Amendments 50 and 51 moved—[Jamie Hepburn]—and agreed to.

Section 47, as amended, agreed to.

After section 47

Amendments 52 and 53 moved—[Jamie Hepburn]—and agreed to.

Sections 48 to 50 agreed to.

Long title agreed to.

Certainly, convener.

I am very pleased to have been able to discuss these amendments with Ross Greer. I am supportive of the principle behind them; I see the benefits in putting in place the proposed 18-month period before elections to give constituents, candidates, administrators and, indeed, political parties certainty about boundaries.

Ross Greer said that he will not be pressing any of his amendments, but I can tell him that we are more than willing to support amendment 72. However, the wording of amendments 73 and 74 would see the 18-month rule applied to the next set of scheduled local government elections in 2027, which would clearly not be practical in terms of Boundaries Scotland’s work after the current Scottish Parliament review is completed. I am clear that the proposed change in approach, although sensible, can apply only to the local government elections scheduled for 2032. Mr Greer has indicated that he will not be moving the amendments today, and I am happy to work with him to ensure that similar amendments can be lodged again at stage 3, on the basis that I have laid out, when I will be happy to support them.

Now that this area has been opened up, I should say that I believe that, if such a change is to happen for council elections, it would be sensible to apply it to future Scottish Parliament reviews, too. I suggest that we will end up revisiting this issue at stage 3.

We can support amendment 72—it is up to Mr Greer whether he presses it—but, although we support the principle behind his other amendments, I suggest that we return to them at stage 3.

I will start with Mr Greer’s amendment 69, which, as he has laid out, ensures that any electoral innovation pilot that would change the methods used to cast votes must be approved by affirmative resolution of the Parliament.

From the discussion that I had with Mr Greer before today—and which, again, I was grateful for—and from what he has set out today, it is clear that his concerns relate specifically to electronic voting. I am concerned that his proposed wording might have an impact on some possible pilots in which changes to the method of voting might not reach his own threshold of concern with regard to this specific area.

Some pilots might, for example, be focused on accessibility improvements. I know that those who are not on the committee did not receive them, but I sent the committee samples of the new tactile voting devices that are being piloted. I could be wrong—the committee might take an alternative view—but I do not think that that example crosses the threshold to require an affirmative vote of Parliament.

I suggest that I discuss the matter further with him. I should say that, in doing so, I am not necessarily going to agree with him at stage 3. If his concern is as narrowly focused as it is, it might be better if he did not press amendment 69 today and instead brought back at stage 3 a more specific amendment on a specific area of concern relating to electronic voting. Indeed, I urge him to consider doing that today.

Amendments 35 to 43, which respond to the committee’s recommendation that the Electoral Commission should be added to the list of bodies that must be consulted on proposed election pilots, will mean that persons who propose an electoral pilot must consult the Electoral Commission before making such a proposal. They will also mean that the Scottish ministers will be obliged to consult the Electoral Commission as well as the Electoral Management Board before making any modifications to a pilot scheme that has been proposed by a local authority or a registration officer under section 5 of Scottish Local Government (Elections) Act 2002.

Mr Doris’s amendments 4 to 7, which will allow the Government to make regulations on pilots for the registration of electors, set out how such pilots may be proposed and evaluated, and made permanent if desirable. They relate to a recommendation that was made by the committee at stage 1. I am grateful to Mr Doris for lodging them, and I was pleased to work with him in advance of stage 2 to help to develop them.

Amendments 4 and 5 will allow the Scottish ministers to make regulations for temporary pilots on voter registration. Any pilots that are proposed to ministers must be the subject of consultation with the Electoral Management Board and the Electoral Commission before they can be approved, to ensure that the expertise of the electoral community, for want of a better term, has been taken into account. Those bodies will be involved in implementing the roll-out of any successful pilots.

Amendments 6 and 7 will ensure that the pilots will be fully evaluated by the Electoral Commission. Ministers will be able to seek to make a change permanent through an affirmative instrument, but only if the Electoral Commission has independently made such a recommendation in its evaluation report.

Information sharing is likely to be a key aspect of any pilot on voter registration, such as a pilot on automatic voter registration, and Mr Doris’s amendments include provisions to facilitate that. Specifically, amendment 4 includes provision about the processing of information in relation to registration.

The Government supports amendments 6 and 7. We are committed to ensuring that everyone who is eligible to vote is able to register. Complete and accurate electoral registers are an important part of that. We know that certain groups, such as young people, people in private rented accommodation and foreign nationals, are far less likely to be registered. Piloting innovative forms of voter registration, such as those that make better use of public data, is one way in which we can seek to improve the electoral registers.

Mr Doris’s amendments set out a robust procedure to ensure that such innovations will be proposed in consultation with those who have responsibility for administering elections, piloted on a temporary basis and fully evaluated before being put to Parliament for a decision on whether to make the reforms apply generally and on a permanent basis.

I urge members to support all the amendments in the group, save for amendment 69, which I ask Mr Greer not to press.

I think that I have said my piece.

Amendment 23 agreed to.

Section 23, as amended, agreed to.

Section 24—Rescheduling of by-elections

Amendment 24 moved—[Jamie Hepburn]—and agreed to.

Section 24, as amended, agreed to.

Section 25—Power of convener of Electoral Management Board to postpone ordinary local election

Amendments 25 to 28 moved—[Jamie Hepburn]—and agreed to.

Section 25, as amended, agreed to.

Section 26—Power of returning officers to postpone election for their area

Amendments 29 to 31 moved—[Jamie Hepburn]—and agreed to.

Section 26, as amended, agreed to.

Section 27—Power of returning officer to postpone or cancel by-election

Amendments 32 to 34 moved—[Jamie Hepburn]—and agreed to.

Section 27, as amended, agreed to.

After section 27

Mr Greer rightly says that there has been a long-standing debate on these issues. I can well imagine that Mr Greer would take far more interest in watching a draw of the order of names on a ballot paper than he would in watching the Scottish cup draw, but I will leave that to one side.

It is clear that there are strong views among many members and councillors that the alphabetical ordering of names on ballot papers has disadvantages. As other members have touched on, the consideration of the issue has a complex past. For a number of reasons, we could not suddenly move to randomising the order of names on ballot papers, particularly without prior consultation and engagement, not least with councils and councillors.

First and foremost, as Annie Wells mentioned, we must consider the concerns that have been raised about the potential negative effects that that would have on some voters with accessibility needs, particularly those with sight loss. The electoral reform consultation that the Government ran in 2017 looked at the possibility of randomisation and other options. Equality groups responded to both that consultation and a study that was undertaken by the Electoral Commission in 2019 to set out their concerns that the randomisation of names would disadvantage people with disabilities, and the Electoral Commission wrote to the committee to make that point.

In responding to the 2017 consultation, the Scottish Council on Visual Impairment said:

“SCOVI’s very strong preference is to retain alphabetic listing of candidates and would urge against moving away from this method. SCOVI acknowledges the concerns about ‘list ordering’ but considers the ability of people with vision impairments to undertake their democratic right to vote independently and in secret to be a principle that must not be jeopardised.”

In its response, Inclusion Scotland stated:

“While we would not disagree that counteracting the list-order effect is a worthwhile goal, we would urge that any system used for doing so be balanced with the potential complication it adds for the electorate.”

I recently wrote to the committee to update it on work to improve the ability of voters with sight loss to complete their ballot independently and in secret. The on-going development of a tactile ballot, paper overlays and the accompanying audio support could potentially be undermined by the randomisation of names on ballot papers. That might be a step backwards for voters with sight loss. It is clear from what we have been told that many voters rely on memorising the order of names on the ballot paper in advance of voting or on using the large posters of the ballot paper in polling stations as an aid. I think that we would all concede that randomisation would complicate that. Although there might be work that could be done to ensure that we would not disadvantage anyone in society, the issue needs to be considered before any changes are made.

I heard what Mr Greer said about consultation and the experience of other places—he mentioned Denmark specifically. I have already mentioned the study that the Electoral Commission undertook in 2019. With regard to the order of names on the ballot paper, it said that it could find “no impact” on the ability of voters to cast their vote.

I note that the amendments also apply to parliamentary elections. The list order affecting local government elections has been debated often and is, I think, understood to a degree by us all. However, I am not aware of any issues that are caused by the order of names on ballot papers in Scottish Parliament elections. I should say that I have no skin in the game in that regard—my surname begins with an H and Mr Greer’s begins with a G, so I am not saying all this out of self-interest. The list order effect is generally considered to be a feature in STV elections, in which one party has multiple candidates standing in the same ward.

The Government last set out its position on the matter in a letter to the committee in October 2022, in which we concluded that we had no plans to undertake further research unless and until there was a specific proposition that was practical and accessible and which had attracted cross-party support. No such proposal has been brought to our attention since then, otherwise we might have been able to test it out.

I am keen to engage with Mr Greer between now and stage 3 on whether we can determine some way of creating, perhaps, an enabling mechanism in the bill that will provide us with the time and space to consult on how we might best address concerns about the order of names on council ballot papers while accommodating the concerns that some organisations have flagged up. As a result, I ask Mr Greer not to press his amendment. Should he choose to do so, I urge committee members not to support the amendments in this group.

I will give the age-old answer that the consultation would be launched as soon as possible. The point is that the commitment would be to hold and conclude the consultation in this parliamentary session. Given that the issues have been raised earnestly, it is important that I make that commitment, and we would honour that. I am genuinely committed to consulting so that we can gather views. As I said, we will ensure that the consultation takes place during this parliamentary session.

Therefore, I urge the committee to vote against the various amendments that I have spoken to—other than my own—and to allow full and proper consultation to take place before Parliament as a whole can take a position on dual mandates.

I am grateful to Ben Macpherson for taking the time to speak to me about his amendment 59. Although there might be a case for an MSP to be required to be ordinarily resident in Scotland, that is another amendment that has not been subject to any prior debate or discussion—it was not raised at stage 1. It might be another area that is worthy of future consultation, but there are important issues to consider, not least whether there would or should be transitional provision to prevent potentially disqualifying currently serving MSPs if, for example, someone happened to reside just over the border. In the first instance, I urge Mr Macpherson not to move amendment 59. However, if he does so, I urge committee members not to support it.

Ross Greer’s remaining amendments in the group cover disqualification orders under the bill and the Elections Act 2022. These are the orders that we are looking to put in place to debar people from office when they are convicted of a crime that involves hostility towards elected representatives, campaigners and electoral workers. Mr Greer’s suggestion that any offence that involves abuse in an electoral context should be subject to a sentencing aggravating factor is interesting. We already provide additional protection for certain groups, such as emergency workers, by setting out sentencing aggravating factors.

It is true that concerns about abuse towards elected representatives and election workers have increased in recent years, and that is the reason for the disqualification orders in the bill. However, I am concerned about adding a sentencing aggravating factor at this stage, as that has not been fully considered. There has not been any consultation on such a step, which could, for example, consider how a new aggravating factor would sit with other statutory aggravating factors.

On amendment 61, Mr Greer has touched on a question that we have discussed before with the committee—that is, the checking of candidate eligibility. That is not a feature of our system; returning officers, in particular, do not check whether candidates are disqualified, and the committee heard evidence at stage 1 about the resource implications if such a system were to be introduced. I would just point out that 2,548 candidates were nominated in the most recent local government elections, while in 2017, 2,572 candidates were nominated. Moreover, in the 2021 Scottish Parliament election, 357 candidates were nominated for constituencies, while in 2016 the equivalent number was 313. I would be very reluctant to set up a screening process without evidence that there was a problem of disqualified people standing for office.

I will give the age-old answer that the consultation would be launched as soon as possible. The point is that the commitment would be to hold and conclude the consultation in this parliamentary session. Given that the issues have been raised earnestly, it is important that I make that commitment, and we would honour that. I am genuinely committed to consulting so that we can gather views. As I said, we will ensure that the consultation takes place during this parliamentary session.

Therefore, I urge the committee to vote against the various amendments that I have spoken to—other than my own—and to allow full and proper consultation to take place before Parliament as a whole can take a position on dual mandates.

I am grateful to Ben Macpherson for taking the time to speak to me about his amendment 59. Although there might be a case for an MSP to be required to be ordinarily resident in Scotland, that is another amendment that has not been subject to any prior debate or discussion—it was not raised at stage 1. It might be another area that is worthy of future consultation, but there are important issues to consider, not least whether there would or should be transitional provision to prevent potentially disqualifying currently serving MSPs if, for example, someone happened to reside just over the border. In the first instance, I urge Mr Macpherson not to move amendment 59. However, if he does so, I urge committee members not to support it.

Ross Greer’s remaining amendments in the group cover disqualification orders under the bill and the Elections Act 2022. These are the orders that we are looking to put in place to debar people from office when they are convicted of a crime that involves hostility towards elected representatives, campaigners and electoral workers. Mr Greer’s suggestion that any offence that involves abuse in an electoral context should be subject to a sentencing aggravating factor is interesting. We already provide additional protection for certain groups, such as emergency workers, by setting out sentencing aggravating factors.

It is true that concerns about abuse towards elected representatives and election workers have increased in recent years, and that is the reason for the disqualification orders in the bill. However, I am concerned about adding a sentencing aggravating factor at this stage, as that has not been fully considered. There has not been any consultation on such a step, which could, for example, consider how a new aggravating factor would sit with other statutory aggravating factors.

On amendment 61, Mr Greer has touched on a question that we have discussed before with the committee—that is, the checking of candidate eligibility. That is not a feature of our system; returning officers, in particular, do not check whether candidates are disqualified, and the committee heard evidence at stage 1 about the resource implications if such a system were to be introduced. I would just point out that 2,548 candidates were nominated in the most recent local government elections, while in 2017, 2,572 candidates were nominated. Moreover, in the 2021 Scottish Parliament election, 357 candidates were nominated for constituencies, while in 2016 the equivalent number was 313. I would be very reluctant to set up a screening process without evidence that there was a problem of disqualified people standing for office.

Mr Greer rightly says that there has been a long-standing debate on these issues. I can well imagine that Mr Greer would take far more interest in watching a draw of the order of names on a ballot paper than he would in watching the Scottish cup draw, but I will leave that to one side.

It is clear that there are strong views among many members and councillors that the alphabetical ordering of names on ballot papers has disadvantages. As other members have touched on, the consideration of the issue has a complex past. For a number of reasons, we could not suddenly move to randomising the order of names on ballot papers, particularly without prior consultation and engagement, not least with councils and councillors.

First and foremost, as Annie Wells mentioned, we must consider the concerns that have been raised about the potential negative effects that that would have on some voters with accessibility needs, particularly those with sight loss. The electoral reform consultation that the Government ran in 2017 looked at the possibility of randomisation and other options. Equality groups responded to both that consultation and a study that was undertaken by the Electoral Commission in 2019 to set out their concerns that the randomisation of names would disadvantage people with disabilities, and the Electoral Commission wrote to the committee to make that point.

In responding to the 2017 consultation, the Scottish Council on Visual Impairment said:

“SCOVI’s very strong preference is to retain alphabetic listing of candidates and would urge against moving away from this method. SCOVI acknowledges the concerns about ‘list ordering’ but considers the ability of people with vision impairments to undertake their democratic right to vote independently and in secret to be a principle that must not be jeopardised.”

In its response, Inclusion Scotland stated:

“While we would not disagree that counteracting the list-order effect is a worthwhile goal, we would urge that any system used for doing so be balanced with the potential complication it adds for the electorate.”

I recently wrote to the committee to update it on work to improve the ability of voters with sight loss to complete their ballot independently and in secret. The on-going development of a tactile ballot, paper overlays and the accompanying audio support could potentially be undermined by the randomisation of names on ballot papers. That might be a step backwards for voters with sight loss. It is clear from what we have been told that many voters rely on memorising the order of names on the ballot paper in advance of voting or on using the large posters of the ballot paper in polling stations as an aid. I think that we would all concede that randomisation would complicate that. Although there might be work that could be done to ensure that we would not disadvantage anyone in society, the issue needs to be considered before any changes are made.

I heard what Mr Greer said about consultation and the experience of other places—he mentioned Denmark specifically. I have already mentioned the study that the Electoral Commission undertook in 2019. With regard to the order of names on the ballot paper, it said that it could find “no impact” on the ability of voters to cast their vote.

I note that the amendments also apply to parliamentary elections. The list order affecting local government elections has been debated often and is, I think, understood to a degree by us all. However, I am not aware of any issues that are caused by the order of names on ballot papers in Scottish Parliament elections. I should say that I have no skin in the game in that regard—my surname begins with an H and Mr Greer’s begins with a G, so I am not saying all this out of self-interest. The list order effect is generally considered to be a feature in STV elections, in which one party has multiple candidates standing in the same ward.

The Government last set out its position on the matter in a letter to the committee in October 2022, in which we concluded that we had no plans to undertake further research unless and until there was a specific proposition that was practical and accessible and which had attracted cross-party support. No such proposal has been brought to our attention since then, otherwise we might have been able to test it out.

I am keen to engage with Mr Greer between now and stage 3 on whether we can determine some way of creating, perhaps, an enabling mechanism in the bill that will provide us with the time and space to consult on how we might best address concerns about the order of names on council ballot papers while accommodating the concerns that some organisations have flagged up. As a result, I ask Mr Greer not to press his amendment. Should he choose to do so, I urge committee members not to support the amendments in this group.

I will not seek to extend your patience, convener.