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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 7 September 2025
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Displaying 385 contributions

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Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

Yes, that is right. The arbiter in the current system is the Parliament. By and large, that process has served us for a long time and, more often than not, it has served us well. Given that we are accountable to the public, in the sense of being elected here in the first place, if we are going to introduce a system of further deliberation on the standards of members of the Parliament, the same principle should apply that, ultimately, that should be in the hands of the public.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

We would need to look at it in relation to the bill as it advances, and consider how we might deal with it. I can safely say that the Government would be concerned about those areas. We should have a line of transparency about how much is being spent, who is spending it and where that money and expenditure is being derived from. These are important parts of our democratic system and we recognise that it is important when people are elected to the Parliament or in other parts of our democratic system. We should also recognise that it is important in relation to any recall process too.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

It might be. It is one of the challenges that we face; it is probably less of an issue here, although we would need to explore it further. A recall mechanism is a fairly clear and distinct process, but it is something that we would need to consider. If there were an election here and a general election for the United Kingdom Parliament in the same regulated period, expenditure in both those elections would start to interact, so the question is what would happen if there was a recall petition in that period.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

There will be a cost to all that. The Presiding Officer has already indicated that a financial memorandum would be required if this were to proceed into law so, yes, there will be costs throughout. If there is to be an education campaign—for want of a better term—that is a cost, and we will have to consider it.

You made the point that the additional member system is a facet of our electoral system here. In 1999, that was new, but people are largely used to it now and understand that they have two ballots to cast at the Scottish Parliament election. In 2007, we introduced the single transferable vote for elections to local authorities; I think that people are becoming used to that and understand the process of ranking candidates. What I am speaking to is that people are well used to becoming acquainted with developments in our electoral system.

I absolutely concede that, when this is introduced and if and when a specific petition comes in—although we all hope that it will not be required—part of the process must be about ensuring that people understand how it works precisely. By and large—and rightly—that work must be done through an external agency in the guise of the Electoral Commission rather than put in the hands of Government or Parliament, which might be perceived as being less independent.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

That is a question for the Parliament. That goes back to my perspective, which I think most of us would agree with, that members are still entitled to a degree of privacy in their personal lives, provided that the matter concerned does not relate to their public conduct and their work in the Parliament. The fact that we are publicly elected representatives does not completely do away with that right.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

I draw members’ attention to paragraphs 26 to 28 of the memorandum that we sent to the committee. The process in this regard becomes a little complicated. There might be a way to deal with that. However, in effect, as drafted, the criminal offence ground for a recall petition, which is set out in section 3, is triggered when an MSP receives any sentence of imprisonment or detention for not less than six months, including suspended sentences where the MSP is not imprisoned immediately, which, of course, might mean that they are not imprisoned at all. By contrast, if someone is sentenced for a shorter period than six months, they are then open to the process of recall, so there seems to be inconsistency.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

My only observation is that, if you are on remand, you have not yet been convicted.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

It is a good question, but it is not one that I have given any thought to.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

That is right, and I am pretty sure that questions about whether we have thought about increased costs in the future are put to the Government on a regular basis. Primarily, it is issues around future costs that drive our perspective on the financial memorandum.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

It would not fall on the local authority, but it would still fall on the public purse. It would mean that resource would have to be diverted from elsewhere.