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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 1 July 2025
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Displaying 376 contributions

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Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Committee Effectiveness Inquiry

Meeting date: 15 May 2025

Jamie Hepburn

Is that your way of saying that I have to be quicker?

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Committee Effectiveness Inquiry

Meeting date: 15 May 2025

Jamie Hepburn

Sitting here as a Government minister, it is very difficult to answer whether a committee exercises enough discipline when holding the Government to account. I have never thought of Ms Mackay as a shark, as you suggested she might be, convener, but answering that would put me in a rather invidious position.

As a Government, we could not set out a perspective on that question. Privately, we might have a candid perspective, but, as a Government, we do not have an overt collective perspective.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Committee Effectiveness Inquiry

Meeting date: 15 May 2025

Jamie Hepburn

The question is hypothetical. If that were to happen, perhaps it would aid things in the way that you describe, but, given how things work just now—with conveners of the Parliament’s committees being elected by committees, once members have been appointed, and with places being allocated party by party—I do not see anything in the manner in which the Government interacts with them that would fundamentally change as a consequence of conveners being elected by means of a vote of Parliament.

11:00  

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Committee Effectiveness Inquiry

Meeting date: 15 May 2025

Jamie Hepburn

I do not think that it would change the manner in which we interact with committees except in what the committees might require of us. I do not think that their size would change the dynamic or the nature of the relationship between the Government, as the executive branch, and Parliament, as the legislative branch. I do not think that the size of committees particularly drives that. I say that while sitting here now, but, if the committees were made smaller, maybe we would find, through practical experience, that it changed the dynamic. However, I cannot think of any reason why it would change the relationship between the Government and the committees of Parliament.

It is similar to the earlier question about whether having elected conveners would change that relationship. My answer to that was that I cannot see any reason why it would, and, again, I cannot see any reason why the size of committees would alter that relationship.

There is evidence to assess that right now in so far as we have committees of various sizes. This committee is fairly small but perfectly formed, I should probably say, convener—although that could get me into trouble with the larger committees, so I withdraw that remark. The education committee is much bigger, and I am not aware of anything that, in and of itself, drives a different interaction because one of the two committees is larger than the other. Interaction is driven by the demands of the individual committees.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Committee Effectiveness Inquiry

Meeting date: 15 May 2025

Jamie Hepburn

The Government does not have a majority in Parliament.

Although that brings pressure to bear on back-bench members of the Government party—which we should recognise, although it is inescapable—the important thing is that, after there is a parliamentary election, committee membership should broadly reflect the composition of Parliament. That is my perspective on the matter.

It could be argued that having smaller committees would be more challenging, because not every party could be represented, but, by its nature, that is down to the size of the parties. We try to reflect parties’ allocation in Parliament across all the committees, and it would be for Parliament to determine whether that should change.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Committee Effectiveness Inquiry

Meeting date: 15 May 2025

Jamie Hepburn

That could be an option—it has happened before—although I observe that we have only so many members to comprise committees. Therefore, although one might think that that would reduce the pressure on a committee, it might not reduce the pressure on the individuals who comprise the committees.

Yes, I absolutely recognise that some committees will be more legislation intensive, but that is not new in the current parliamentary session—it has always been the case.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Committee Effectiveness Inquiry

Meeting date: 15 May 2025

Jamie Hepburn

I do, if you will let me find them.

The number of Scottish statutory instruments in the first year of our first parliamentary session, from 2000 to 2001, was 326. The number peaked in 2006-07, at 522. The last year for which we have figures is 2023-24, when there were 193 SSIs. Again, I therefore respectfully suggest that we are not overburdening committees with legislation in either its primary or its secondary form.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Committee Effectiveness Inquiry

Meeting date: 15 May 2025

Jamie Hepburn

By the rural committee—I beg your pardon.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Committee Effectiveness Inquiry

Meeting date: 15 May 2025

Jamie Hepburn

Well, there is that perspective as well.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Committee Effectiveness Inquiry

Meeting date: 15 May 2025

Jamie Hepburn

I guess that it would depend on the question. If we had introduced legislation, there would be a wider expectation that Parliament had to consider it. Once it is at committee, it is for the committee to determine.

I go back to the figures—I will not read them all out again, because I see the time, convener—