Chamber and committees

Those who have been involved in discussions on social security will have heard my predecessors and me talk a lot about the importance of safe and secure transition. We are right to do that, because we recognise that these individuals, who might be in very difficult or vulnerable situations, are relying on payments. So, one of our first responsibilities is to ensure that we have a safe and secure transition. That is why case transfer is very important.

We must also ensure that we do not have a two-tier system in which the rules are different for those who are making new applications and those who are already in the system and are still waiting for case transfer. That is a very unfair situation to be in.

That situation means that we cannot deliver some of the changes that we would like to make as fast as people would like—I totally recognise that—but I think that, as we heard last week, many of the witnesses and stakeholders have stressed the overall importance of safe and secure transition.

The issue of overpayments is a really important one. There are still things that we can do to improve the situation and to minimise the risk of overpayments. That has been a long-standing concern about carers allowance, which sits within the Department for Work and Pensions.

I will give a few examples that might help the committee. One of the areas in which we are keen to do more than the DWP currently does is the averaging of earnings to provide carers with more stable support. Incomes can go up or down, so we want earnings to be averaged over a period. That will, I hope, make it less likely that people will find the eligibility criteria out of reach because of, for example, a bonus or overtime at a particular time. Averaging is very important.

We have built in a system of alerts that Social Security Scotland will use to get data from His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to track carers’ earnings, and there will be a number of scheduled reviews of earnings for self-employed carers, to prevent there being as many overpayments.

One more example—this is an important area on which the committee took a lot of evidence last week—is the fact that we will pay the carer support payment four-weekly in arrears. That is different from the DWP’s payment of three weeks in arrears and one week in advance, which can sometimes make it difficult to make the analysis as tight as it needs to be under carers allowance.

We are still keeping to safe and secure transition, but those are some of the measures that we are looking at in relation to the carer support payment that, I hope, can still make a difference to people with regard to the risk of overpayments.

We are looking at options for introducing a formal right of appeal for the liability of overpayments. Carers can, of course, request a review of a decision on liability of overpayments, but that will be carried out by Social Security Scotland. I appreciate that stakeholders have raised concerns about the fact that there is no formal redetermination or appeal rights, as you said.

That is an issue that we need to look at not just in relation to the carer support payment but across all devolved benefits. The committee will be aware that we, as a Government, have consulted on overpayment liability. The committee will also be aware that we have said in the programme for government that there will be a social security amendment bill later this parliamentary year. Full details of how we will approach that will be in the bill.

I hope that that provides the committee with reassurance that we have already undertaken consultation on the issue, that we recognise that it is an issue and that the committee and the Parliament will have the opportunity to look at the proposed solutions once the bill is before Parliament.

Again, that cannot be done until after case transfer. I gave details earlier—for the sake of time, I will not go through them again—about how we are trying to get better at looking at average earnings. We are also looking at how, if someone goes over the income threshold, their award will be temporarily stopped and reinstated without application rather than suspended. That gives individuals more rights, and it is another issue that we are already looking at.

The earnings threshold for the carer support payment will have to align with that for the carers allowance until case transfer is complete, but we continue to look at the responses to the consultation that suggest future changes. The earnings threshold is, of course, very important. I apologise for repeating this, but it is an important point: everything will have to be done in the context of how affordable and sustainable improvements are within the Scottish budget, which is largely fixed.

The work on the minimum income guarantee is very important to the Government. It was very important within the programme for government, and yesterday I had the pleasure of attending the first meeting of that group since I got into post. I heard, for example, from people with direct lived experience in relation to the importance of the Government moving forward with a minimum income guarantee, so we are very keen to look at that.

The First Minister has asked that group to look at what can be done with carers. Of course, it is up to the group to decide its work plan, but I am pleased to say that that was passed yesterday, and there is a lot that could potentially be done within that.

I hope that the group’s final report, when it comes out, can give assistance not just to carers, but on a minimum income guarantee overall. I think, and the Government thinks, that a minimum income guarantee for carers, in particular, would greatly assist them, because we know that there are challenges in that area. We are very keen to look at that, but obviously the report and what is made of it are entirely for that group, which is independent of Government. The group has produced an interim report, but the ask around carers specifically came in after that report was published.

I am happy to bring in Jane Sterry on that issue.

That is a very important point for the agency and Government to consider. Overpayments are an inevitability of the system as it stands, because it is exceptionally complex. In the future, the Government might wish to look at how we can simplify some of the processes, but that will not be done in the short term. We need to get the case transfer right and ensure that we have a system that delivers on some of the priorities that I have mentioned.

In the meantime, I recognise that, when there are overpayments, there is concern among stakeholders about the amount being set at £65, and I reassure the committee—this applies not only to carer support payments but to all the benefits that are dealt with—that the financial circumstances and personal circumstances of individuals, as far as they are known to the agency, are taken into account when the agency assesses overpayments. It is not done automatically and with no communication. That is an important part of the dignity, fairness and respect aspect that goes wider than the carer support payment.

The £65 level is in line with the DWP level, and it is based on the cost of overpayment recovery. In essence, the cost of recovering anything lower than that amount would outweigh the amount that would be recovered. As Social Security Scotland is a relatively new agency, we do not have the data in the agency to determine what the cost of recovery would be. The Government is therefore keen to keep that under review, to see whether changes should be made to the overall policy on payments, and the carer support payment will be included in that.

The agency agreement that we have with the DWP runs out in March 2025, and we have no concerns about that timeframe at the moment. The case transfer begins a few months after our pilot scheme, and the number of case transfers will grow incrementally. We will start small, test everything and ensure that there are no concerns about the transfer and nothing about it that makes it difficult for carers. All carers will have started the transfer journey by the end of 2024 and will have completed it by March 2025. We will start the transfer not long after the pilot scheme, we will begin to scale that up after testing the process, and all carers will have had notification of case transfer by the end of 2024.

Again, that can be an important difference in how we deliver social security in Scotland. It is about recognising that an individual who comes forward and is eligible—in this case, for the carer support payment—could also potentially benefit from further knowledge of what other support is out there. Work has already been undertaken and, from launch, we will continue to finesse our approach on notifications in the award letter and online content signposting carers to what else is available out there. There will be links available as soft stops in the application, perhaps even to help carers who might not be entitled to the benefit but may require further support as a carer. We are also looking at having information on adult carer support plans, young carer statements and so on.

Signposting is very important, but we know that it is only one step and that more can be done. We are keen to further develop the approach as the agency continues its growth, recognising its important place in our communities. I mentioned local delivery, which is important, and, as I mentioned to Roz McCall, that service will have links to local groups.

We will continue to learn. We will continue the national stakeholder engagement with carers stakeholder groups and with the agency to continuously check whether we are getting it right and whether more can be done. That is an added ask of the agency that does not happen in the DWP—it is an additional ask of social security staff. Nevertheless, it is an important ask, because we need to see the carer as an individual rather than as an application form and consider what that individual needs as they move forward.

I hope that that explains some of what we can do online in relation to the application form, even for those people who are not entitled to the benefit, as well as what local delivery can do.

Sure. I will bring in my officials if they think that I have missed out any key points on that. That highlights why the carer support payment is one of the most technically complex benefits to introduce, as there has to be continuous linking between DWP and HM Revenue and Customs information.

The way that we are doing the roll-out is important, and we have a pilot to test those links using a manageable number of cases. We will then move forward with the national roll-out, so that Social Security Scotland, the DWP and HMRC can all test that it is working effectively.

Another reason that it is challenging is because there is modernisation work going on in the DWP around its systems for carers. That is really important work for it to be doing, but it means that we are trying to latch on to a system that is changing, which brings additional challenges—if I can put it like that—although officials are working very well together.

It is important that there is understanding of the amount of work involved, the complexity of it and the fact not only that it is a joint process to get a system set up and allow case transfer, but that it will be a continuing joint process between devolved and reserved parts of government.

That is working well. It is not simple, by any means, and I am sure that programme colleagues in the directorate will think that I have understated the level of complexity, but I hope that the committee appreciates the amount of work involved and the fact that the continuing engagement between all the levels is going well. I have no concerns about that at this point.

We will have to keep up that level of engagement as we move to systems going live and to testing them with data, but that is why we are taking a cautious approach to how we are rolling it out, by using pilots—just as we did with child and adult disability payments.

Social Security Scotland looks carefully at workforce aspects to ensure that the staff are in place. It is different for every benefit, but there are lessons to be learned from how the case transfer process works. The carer support payment is more complex, but that is exactly why we will start off with a small number of case transfers, test the process and ensure that the workforce assumptions are correct. In that way, the agency can flex if the models are incorrect for whatever reason or if we have got something out of kilter with regard to the workforce.

At this stage, we are very confident about staffing, but the way that we are managing the process means that the agency has the ability to flex, should it require to do so.