Chamber and committees

I think that it is a mark of success if those who are eligible for a benefit are supported to get it and no longer feel any stigma in getting what they are entitled to. One of the reasons why expenditure on benefits, and particularly adult disability payment, is going up to a greater extent here than it is in the rest of the UK is that, as the Fiscal Commission and others have pointed out, people are being supported through that process. There is analysis to ensure that, if they are eligible, they will get it and, if they are not eligible, they will not get it, but the process is a supportive one, and people are now coming forward who, because of the stigma, did not come forward under the previous system.

I am happy to go into a lot more detail on this, and I am sure that David Wallace will be, too. However, as I said at the start of this session, it is factually incorrect to say that the Scottish Government is not moving forward with any analysis of, and then action on, the historical debt that was built up with the benefits administered by the Department for Work and Pensions. We can spend as much time as you like going through this, Mr Hoy, because I am content that we have a robust process for dealing with fraud, as David Wallace has laid out, as well as a process that ensures that what we do with overpayments is robust but fair.

I go back to my point that the legislative basis for the Scottish child payment is for recipients to be in receipt of universal credit. I have not seen evidence that would suggest that universal credit is given to people who are not in poverty or that it is somehow a profligate measure that allows people to live with great expanse. Indeed, all the work that is done by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, the Institute for Public Policy Research and others suggests that people who receive universal credit lack the ability to get the basic essentials of life. That is why we have called on the UK Government to deliver an essentials guarantee. We have to be very cautious about talking about people who are in receipt of universal credit as if they are living in a profligate and expansive financial context. The evidence, not just from the Government but from others, is that they are not.

Many of the aspects that you mentioned are equally available to people who are in and out of work. Eligibility is to do with whether they are deemed to be in poverty or in receipt of certain reserved benefits, so—

No. We have covered quite a lot, and we will get back to you in writing with some of the details that the committee has asked for.

I am happy to bring Ian Davidson in to give further detail on that, but those discussions started immediately. We have looked at the issue that COSLA raised and are content that we foresee no issues at present.

I absolutely take the point that different measures can be taken right across Government to alleviate poverty. Choices have been made across Government on that point. I would say that those choices have also been made across Parliament, because, with very few exceptions, the delivery through the secondary legislation on the eligibility methods for social security has been supported on a cross-party basis. Those proposals from the Scottish Government have been supported, with very few exceptions, on a cross-party basis. We have made conscious choices to have certain eligibility criteria for different benefits or to have benefits that are only available in Scotland and not elsewhere. I do take that point.

A number of different evaluation measures are in place. I can point to one in particular, which is a report by the chief social policy adviser last year that looked at the evidence from Social Security Scotland about achieving a fairer Scotland through reducing poverty, household poverty, material deprivation and debt and considering health and wellbeing. That report by Professor Linda Bauld looked at the impact of social security payments on individuals.

The Government has important work to do to look at where the payments are going and the impact that they are having on individuals. That does not mean that that money cannot be spent in different ways across Government but, as part of social security, we are keen to look at the impacts that those payments have.

Those are the decisions that, in effect, add pressure.

It might be better. There are two aspects to consider here. I still say that, if we wish to change the trajectory, we will have to change eligibility. If I understand what is behind your question, convener, if others make the case that disability payments should be made only to people who are out of work or that they should be means tested in some way—

I knew that I was going into a slightly sensitive area there, convener, but that is important in that it shows how we are ensuring that the type of employability support that is specifically for disabled people is now available in all 32 local authorities. That takes to a national level the support that was available in some areas but not in others to do exactly the thing that you mentioned—to ensure that, if those who have a disability are able to find employment, they can do so and be supported in that. The Government was pleased to be able to announce that additional funding to ensure that that support is now available right across the country.