Chamber and committees

We met clients in Dundee, and it was great to hear about their experiences of support and how it had changed their lives. However, in Dundee, we also discussed unmet need. Although the organisation there works with quite a lot of people, it still recognises that there is huge unmet need out there among people who are not accessing services and not getting into employment. There is untapped potential and opportunity in our workforce. We want the Government to ensure that the target is reached, that more investment is put in and that that group is supported.

My final question is on the Social Enterprise Scotland report that referred to the pay gap. As well as the disability employment gap, there is a pay gap—for every £1 that a non-disabled employee earns, a disabled employee earns 83p. There is a gap of almost £4,000 between the yearly salaries. Does that come under the Government’s fair work agenda? Has it been looked at? How do we address the pay gap for disabled people?

Good morning, and welcome to the fourth meeting in 2023 of the Economy and Fair Work Committee. Our first item of business is a decision on taking item 3 in private. Are members content to take that item in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Thank you.

I have a couple of final questions. Written submissions from Enable Scotland and Social Enterprise Scotland have said that the focus has been on providing support to get disabled people into work but that that maybe does not recognise the importance of in-work support and the need to ensure that it is sufficiently funded to enable people to retain employment.

Enable Scotland has pretty good figures on retention, but that has been achieved through one-to-one support from workers who are not overloaded by their case load and who can provide the level of support that people need. Is it recognised as an important part of the strategy to increase employability and decrease the gap that the issue is about not just getting people into jobs—although that will have an impact on the gap—but is also abut retention and keeping people in employment?

We heard yesterday about career progression. It is not just about getting people into employment; it is also about the ambition and aspirations that can be achieved through that. Is that recognised as an important part of what we need to do?

We have heard about the access to work programme which, as you say, is quite well funded. We have heard about difficulties with delays and with the application process, so we will follow that up.

However, my question was not just about that type of support; it was also about the support that we give in Scotland to the third sector and other organisations. Those organisations have talked about the importance of continuity of services. An organisation that has helped someone to gain confidence to apply for a job and has got them through that is often the organisation that is best placed to provide in-work support.

Funds will sometimes be drawn down from the access to work scheme, but at other times that is funded by the Scottish Government or by local authorities. We heard positive feedback about Dundee and Edinburgh councils, which have decided to give some security of funding to organisations to continue that work. That goes back to the postcode lottery question, because it is not happening everywhere.

The access to work programme is important, and people should have more information about it and be able to access it; it should have a higher profile. However, that aside, does the Scottish Government recognise that there is a job to do to support people once they are in employment to secure their employment, and to ensure that organisations are funded to provide that? Do you see that being part of the strategy?

Those of us who visited the National Autistic Society in Scotland on Monday heard positive reports about the work that the Scottish Government has undertaken on employing people on the autism spectrum. The society was very favourable about the work that is being done. There was comment on whether, if that work could be learned from, that example could be used to encourage other employers. That points towards the need for more joined-up and connected policy.

Earlier, the point was made that where something is working well, it needs to be recognised, spread throughout the country, and used as a good example. Maybe that is not happening enough. There are pockets of progress and pockets in which things are not progressing, and we do not know what is happening where. That goes back to the data question.

When we visited the National Autistic Society, a strong point was made about the need for specialist support for young people in schools. We might be looking at the issue from an education perspective, but the case was made that specialists are needed. Often, that requires third sector involvement in education. That support needs to be funded.

I understand that that issue is not in your portfolio, but it crosses over. If you are looking at bringing those young people into employment and making them productive members of society, they need specialist support, which is maybe not always available in schools. More focus on that is needed. That might be something that you could feed back.

That brings us to the end of the evidence session. I thank the minister and the officials for the evidence that we have heard this morning. We now move into private session.

Is work being done to collect data and statistics? You have described how challenging it is and that some of it is not in place yet. The target that we are heading towards is numbers based, so we need to know the baselines to see what progress is being made. Is any work being done by the Scottish Government to collect and collate data in order to have a better understanding of what makes up the disability employment gap, where we are making progress and where more progress needs to be made?

The committee is doing a short piece of work on the disability employment gap. One of the areas that we have identified is data and the information that is available. As you have recognised, progress has been made in closing the gap, which the committee very much welcomes. However, there is evidence, in particular from work that the Fraser of Allander Institute has done, to suggest that progress is concentrated in certain groups and certain types of disability, while other groups are even further away from the workplace than they were. In particular, that work looked at people with learning disabilities. Do you have an understanding of where progress has been made and where further progress needs to be made? Has the data that is needed to inform that understanding been adequately collected?

I suppose I will now add to that difficulty. In the evidence session that we held with Enable Scotland and the Fraser of Allander Institute, they talked about an increase in the number of people with poor mental health—you mentioned Covid and long Covid being in there, as well—and how that was impacting on employment figures. Some of those people are already in work and are then classified as disabled. That might be contributing to the improvement in the number of people in work who have a disability. Do you want to comment on the impact of poor mental health? Has any work been undertaken to assess what impact trends in those areas are having on the overall figures? I think that Susan Ferguson works in that area.