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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 10 September 2025
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Displaying 3573 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 20 May 2025

Kenneth Gibson

There are a number of things in your answer. First, are firms motivated to limit costs? There seems to be no real incentive for them to do so.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Budget Process in Practice

Meeting date: 20 May 2025

Kenneth Gibson

During last summer, autumn and into the winter, you were saying that relationships had improved, so there is, obviously, concern if that is not the case. On 29 March, this committee and our Welsh and Northern Irish counterparts had a meeting with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. It was meant to be an in-person meeting but, a few days beforehand, it was changed to an online meeting of 45 minutes. On the day, that was reduced to 30 minutes and, once he came on the call, it was reduced to less than 15 minutes. There were 11 political parties at the meeting who wanted to engage, and we could not. In fact, his own political party was probably the most critical of that engagement. Is there a wider issue with the UK Treasury or, specifically, with the CST? Obviously, we will have concerns if that is going to be an on-going situation. We do not want relationships to deteriorate as the months and years progress.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 20 May 2025

Kenneth Gibson

The Scottish child abuse inquiry has already cost more than £95 million and has been going for nine or 10 years. That is clearly a concern.

You have made suggestions on alternatives. People who demand inquiries are often looking for a judge-led inquiry, because they say that that is the gold standard. However, in your evidence, you say that witnesses, when meeting round a small table with a panel to give their evidence,

“either individually or in small groups”,

and when

“lawyers were not involved”,

found that to be

“much less formal and intimidating”

but that it

“nonetheless added considerably to the information the panel were able to take into account.”

Your view is that that is probably a more expeditious, less expensive and—for the people who are giving evidence—less daunting prospect.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 20 May 2025

Kenneth Gibson

You mention the fact that, in the Jersey inquiry, two solicitors were required to be involved, “at considerable hourly rates”. In the Scottish Covid inquiry, the rate for senior counsel was capped at some £200 an hour, with around 40—but possibly 60—hours a week, which means that, for that individual, the rate could effectively range from £8,000 to £12,000 a week. So far, the Scottish Covid inquiry has cost £34 million and is still on-going; the UK one has cost £164 million. That is a lot of hours for lawyers, is it not?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 20 May 2025

Kenneth Gibson

I believe that the Sheku Bayoh inquiry has, so far, cost £17 million in legal fees alone. That means 85,000 hours for senior counsel—although they are not all senior counsel—even at £200 an hour. Eyebrows have certainly been raised over the costs of those inquiries.

Let us compare with elsewhere. Australia is not greatly different from the UK in many areas, and its Covid inquiry took 13 months and cost £4 million. New Zealand’s inquiry has been on-going for two years but it has cost £7 million so far—so a lot less than Scotland’s. Norway, Sweden and Finland have all concluded their inquiries within a year or so, so there are ways in which the process can be done more efficiently and effectively.

You have talked about an inquisitorial approach, for example. Could there also be a more standardised approach to the practicalities in relation to start-up time and reduced costs? We have already heard that the Caldwell inquiry took some 13 months to be set up after it was announced. That family had to wait day in, day out, wondering when it would happen, for more than a year. We are also aware that more than £1 million has been spent on the Eljamel case before any evidence has even been heard.

11:30  

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 20 May 2025

Kenneth Gibson

When inquiries have completed their deliberations, one area of frustration is that the report can take donkey’s years to write. You said that you tried with your report—which still took a year to write—to make the recommendations “as short as possible” and that there were eight recommendations. Some inquiries have as many as 86 recommendations and some have only one. Are you suggesting that they should try to make recommendations as punchy—for want of a better word—and impactful as possible?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 20 May 2025

Kenneth Gibson

There is also an issue of conflict of interest when legal firms that are directly involved in a specific inquiry are themselves suggesting a deepening and widening of that inquiry.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 20 May 2025

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you. That will have whetted the appetite of colleagues around the table.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 20 May 2025

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you very much. I really found this opening session of the inquiry fascinating. Would you like to add anything further to the evidence that you have provided today before we wind up, Professor Cameron?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Budget Process in Practice

Meeting date: 20 May 2025

Kenneth Gibson

Hold on. Excuse me for a second. We are drifting quite significantly away from the issue on which we are supposed to be taking evidence, Michael.