Skip to main content
Loading…

Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

Filter your results Hide all filters

Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 18 October 2025
Select which types of business to include


Select level of detail in results

Displaying 3805 contributions

|

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 7 October 2025

Kenneth Gibson

No one is casting any aspersions on you or on Thompsons, but there is a strong case whereby legal costs seem excessive—certainly to laypeople. For example, Police Scotland’s direct costs in supporting the Sheku Bayoh public inquiry—I understand that you were not involved in it—are £25,409,629, of which £18,087,494 is directly attributable to legal costs. So far, the cost of that inquiry, which has run for six years, is £51 million. The Scottish Police Federation has said that the police contribution to that is equivalent to employing 500 police officers for a year.

Although justice for the alleged victims in any public inquiry is important, the opportunity cost is something that we, as representatives of the Scottish Parliament, have to consider. Is that public inquiry more viable than, for example, another 500 police officers on the streets—or whatever else? We are not saying that we should throw the baby out with the bath water and that there should be no public inquiries. The committee is not saying that that public inquiry should not have happened or that another one should have. We are asking how we can deliver the same level of justice or, indeed, better justice more efficiently and effectively and at lower cost to the public purse.

We have seen in the evidence that some inquiries go on for some time—I just mentioned the Sheku Bayoh inquiry, which has gone on for six years. They go on for years and there is a law of diminishing returns—in terms of public interest, apart from anything else. Public interest goes down, the reason for holding the inquiry becomes more obscure and the cost goes up.

In weeks to come, we will be looking at systems in other countries but, given your wide experience, I would like to hear your views on the level of justice that you are seeking. I am aware of the points that you have made about, for example, the inquiries into infected blood—you believe that one was inadequate, while the other was done more thoroughly and produced a better outcome. With the system that we have, how can we become more efficient and effective in delivering what everyone wants—that is, better outcomes?

11:00  

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 7 October 2025

Kenneth Gibson

So—

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Building Safety Levy (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 October 2025

Kenneth Gibson

I refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests.

The next item on our agenda is an evidence session on the Building Safety Levy (Scotland) Bill. I welcome to the meeting Jonathan Henderson, assistant chief officer and director of prevention at the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service, and Peter Drummond, trustee of the Scottish Incorporation of Architects in Scotland and chair of its practice committee. We have around 90 minutes for this evidence session.

I thank you both for your written submissions. I would like to ask Mr Drummond about his submission. The content was excellent, but the size of the typing was a wee bit small for my liking—I had to get the magnifying glass out. In it, you said:

“Whilst Scotland’s more robust regulatory framework has helped limit the extent to which we are affected, there nonetheless exist a significant number of cases where householders find themselves facing very significant remediation costs through no fault of their own.”

Can you give us some examples of that?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Building Safety Levy (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 October 2025

Kenneth Gibson

The only reason that I am asking you about that is because it is in your submission.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 7 October 2025

Kenneth Gibson

It would not derail an inquiry as such. Our inquiry is not about whether an inquiry should or should not take place, but about how to make inquiries more efficient and effective in delivering justice and value for the taxpayer at the same time.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 7 October 2025

Kenneth Gibson

You have talked about bricks-and-mortar inquiries. I highlight the trams inquiry, which took nine years and cost £13.8 million, and then came out with a report running to 30,000 pages. Who read them?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 7 October 2025

Kenneth Gibson

My mother had dementia, but you could have a conversation with her, and she was still doing sudoku and reading the papers every day. Then there was lockdown, and six months later, she was unable even to speak. Obviously the disease was advancing, but isolation was a factor, too.

Theoretically, then, I could give evidence to the Covid inquiry; I am not intending to, of course, but the bottom line is that we are talking about a huge number of people, and it just becomes very difficult. You get what is called in economics “diseconomies of scale”. The quality of the inquiry is at a certain level, but then you get so much information that the quality ends up going down, and all that happens is that the time for deliberation gets extended.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 7 October 2025

Kenneth Gibson

So, you have one person speaking on behalf of 50 people.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 7 October 2025

Kenneth Gibson

A maximum number, then.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 7 October 2025

Kenneth Gibson

I understand that, but when you get to 500 or 1,000, it becomes—