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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 15 July 2025
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Displaying 3539 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Kenneth Gibson

We will continue to take pre-budget evidence on Scotland’s public finances in 2023-24. I welcome to the meeting Councillor Katie Hagmann, the resources spokesperson for the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, Kirsty Flanagan, chair of the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy local government directors of finance Scotland section, who is attending remotely, and Paul Manning, executive director of finance and corporate resources and depute chief executive, South Lanarkshire Council.

As we did with the previous panel, we will move straight to questions. I will ask the first few questions.

COSLA’s submission is excellent and very detailed. I found the appendices particularly useful. However, the thrust appears to be that additional funding is required for local government, although all the indications are that the settlement that the Scottish Government will receive will be static in cash terms and a decrease in real terms.

In your submission, you highlight an anticipated £743 million reduction in core funding by 2026-27. If that is not to come from local government, where should it come from? Should it come from other areas of the Scottish budget—you touched on health and social care, for example—or do you envisage that additional powers over planning and building control fees and tourist tax, which you suggest could be provided to local government, could fill that gap? It is a nice easy question to start.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Kenneth Gibson

You talk about the critical mass being reduced significantly in some smaller councils. I, for example, am an MSP for North Ayrshire and there are three Ayrshire councils, which were created for political purposes rather than for any other reason. Does that mean that those three councils would be in a better position if they merged into one local authority, because they would not be viable any longer? Would the situation in Forth Valley with Falkirk, Stirling and Clackmannanshire councils be the same? If the situation progresses as you suggest, where would we be in relation to delivering support services?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Okay. Before I let colleagues in, I will ask two more questions. The first is for Kirsty Flanagan. Your joint submission says:

“greater emphasis should be placed on tracking outcomes rather than ... spend.”

Should not both things be done?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Kenneth Gibson

The next item is our first pre-budget evidence session on Scotland’s public finances in 2023-24, focusing primarily on the impact of the cost of living and public service reform.

I welcome Stephen Boyle, who is the Auditor General for Scotland; Charlotte Barbour, who is the vice-president of the Chartered Institute of Taxation; and Susan Murray, who is a director at the David Hume Institute. We will move straight to questions.

Stephen, I will start with you. In your submission, you say that the Scottish Government

“needs to plan how it manages the long-term sustainability of”

social security spending and

“be clearer how it will improve outcomes for Scottish people.”

Is that happening, in particular with reference to how the national strategy for economic transformation is helping to grow the economy?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Charlotte Barbour, I have a straightforward question for you. Given current levels of wage increases, and assuming that there will be no change in the higher-rate tax threshold in Scotland, how many more Scottish taxpayers will be caught in fiscal drag from next April?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Kenneth Gibson

That is what we are trying to grasp, which is why we are relying on the evidence of our witnesses.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Kenneth Gibson

If you cannot put a figure on it in pounds, shillings and pence or anything of that nature, then over which other areas should transport be prioritised? Perhaps the best that we can envisage would be a static budget—it would probably represent a decline in real terms but be static or slightly higher in cash terms—so we will have to prioritise. If you are saying that we should spend more on public transport, for example—I ask about that because you specifically mentioned it in your submission—what should it be prioritised over?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you very much for answering my opening questions. I will now allow colleagues in.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Kenneth Gibson

I should point out that the Scottish Government’s capital allocation was cut by 9.8 per cent in the current financial year. I understand the position that councils are in; the whole budget is in that position.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you very much. I take it that that last point is about avoiding what we might call waste tourism. Is that correct?