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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 18 July 2025
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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

That concludes questions from members. I have a few to wind up with.

The first is a follow-up to Douglas Lumsden’s point. The briefing by the Scottish Parliament information centre says:

“The stated purpose of the Bill is to improve the quality and consistency of social services in Scotland.”

From our discussion today, it seems like you are using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Surely, if there are issues of consistency and quality, as you have just touched on in your answer to Douglas, they should be addressed directly. Who has the problems of quality and consistency? Name and shame them. Would it not be easier just to impose duties to ensure that they raise their standards to the level of those who are doing best? I would be happy for you to name them, too.

As Michelle Thomson pointed out, it seems to be a monumental risk to have a bill of this nature, with all the financial implications, because a few service deliverers are not up to scratch.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

All the submissions that the committee has received express concern about the VAT baseline, which is included in the figures in table 2 of the financial memorandum. To be fair, time has trundled on, and that was published before the latest skyrocketing levels of inflation. However, in its response, COSLA states:

“These figures are misleadingly uprated each year, from a 2019/20 baseline, by inflation plus 3%. This uprating does not reflect subsequent Local Government settlements”.

That is important, given that it was announced way back in May. The response goes on to say that the uprating

“is completely at odds with the reality presented by the Scottish Government’s own Resource Spending Review, of a 'flat cash' settlement”.

Surely that alone means that the financial memorandum is no longer fit for purpose and requires to be updated at least.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

The last question from me—and the last in this session—is: does the financial memorandum, in your view, deliver best estimates of the cost of delivering the legislation?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Good morning, and welcome to the 26th meeting in 2022 of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. We are joined in the public gallery by members of the California Lawyers Association. I welcome them all to the Scottish Parliament.

We have received apologies from Ross Greer and Daniel Johnson.

The first item on our agenda is an evidence session with Scottish Government officials on the financial memorandum to the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill. I welcome Donna Bell, director of social care and national care service development, and Fiona Bennett, interim deputy director for national health service, integration and social care finance.

I understand that Donna Bell would like to make a short opening statement.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Could you speak up a wee bit? I am finding it difficult to hear you, and I think that other members are, too.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Yes—that is a really good point.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Sharon Wearing, in your submission you mention the importance of strong financial leadership and the fact that it has not been recognised in the consultation, the financial memorandum or indeed the bill. You also mention a lack of robust information. For the record, what additional information do you require at this point?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

The concern is that those costs use current expenditure as a starting point rather than the actual costs of the delivery of social care. All those who are responsible for the delivery of social care fear that there just will not be enough money, frankly, for the delivery of the service, especially given that, as a Parliament, we are already under severe financial pressure, local authorities are already facing financial restrictions, and we have an ageing population. How is that circle going to be squared?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

There are mountains of questions that I could ask, but colleagues will have issues that they want to raise and I do not want to steal all their thunder.

One issue that I want to ask about is VAT. From paragraph 52 of the financial memorandum, it looks almost as though a cavalier approach—a fingers-crossed, “it’ll be alright on the night” approach—is being taken. On pensions, it says that

“More work and engagement will be required to determine the most suitable and affordable design”.

On VAT, it says that

“If care boards are not able to reclaim VAT in a similar way”

to integration joint boards,

“there could be a significant financial impact.”

It goes on to say:

“Work is underway to understand this potential cost and how it might be mitigated to ensure maximum support for front line services. VAT costs are not assumed”.

What level of certainty do you have that we will be able to deliver the national care service if we do not get the VAT allowance that we hope to get and that integration joint boards get?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you. I am sure that colleagues have a number of other questions that they wish to ask.