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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 27 July 2025
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Displaying 3539 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Okay. Douglas Lumsden will ask the next question.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

In theory, everyone agrees with the national performance framework and the outcomes that it seeks to achieve, but sometimes it contradicts some of the things that people want to make public announcements on. For example, it might contradict numbers. Someone might say that, for example, we want to achieve a certain health outcome by reducing the number of beds, but when it comes to reducing the number of beds, it causes political kickback. That was touched on earlier.

I want to finish off with a couple of questions, but before I do that, I will let Jamie Halcro Johnston in because I think that he has a couple of things he wants to ask.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

We are talking about how to improve Government decision making, whereas that is more about the choice of decisions, but Paul Sheerin made those points extremely well, and it was a good question from Douglas Lumsden. I have raised that issue with the previous First Minister in the Conveners Group, as well as in many other forums, including the chamber, so I am certainly on board with what is being said.

To follow on from that and finish off our questions, I will ask how decision making relationships with ministers can be improved. We have heard about how the private sector takes decisions and, before that, we had a session about how we can improve decision making in the public sector. How can that interaction with ministers be improved?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Rebecca Rigg, would you like to add anything?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Interests

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you very much.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Leadership is important there. In the private sector, people tend to have a strong knowledge of their company that they have perhaps built over many years. One of the differences in the public sector if you are a minister, for example, is that you can be minister for justice one week and minister for health the next week, if that is what the First Minister, or down south, the Prime Minister, decides to do. Ministers have to rely on the advice of civil servants, special advisers and so on. Companies come in all different shapes and sizes and sectors, but what kind of structure would a small to medium-sized company—that is, the majority of companies in Scotland—expect to have, if any?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

In politics, when the challenge function goes, that is when you know that a politician’s time is up. They get to a stage when they want to surround themselves with people who agree with them and they eventually hit the buffers. What you emphasise in relation to the challenge function is important.

Paul Sheerin, what about the dichotomy between the long term and the short term? The emphasis in politics is on five-year cycles or perhaps even shorter ones if you are a new minister who wants to make an impact. When I studied economics at university, a lot of people thought that companies were there only to make a profit, but one of the first things that we studied was the theory of the firm, which is about long-term survivability and growth rather than just making a quick buck this year and possibly next. Generally speaking, how do companies see that? Again, we know that they are different across a huge range of sectors. For example, if the economy is buoyant, how do companies decide on short-term versus long-term decision making?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

We will continue with our evidence taking on effective Scottish Government decision making. I am delighted to welcome to the meeting Paul Sheerin, chief executive officer, and Rebecca Rigg, commercial director, at Scottish Engineering; and Sandy Begbie CBE, chief executive officer at Scottish Financial Enterprise.

As members may recall, this evidence session is intended to focus not only on the witnesses’ experience of Scottish Government decision making, but also provide an opportunity to explore how their sectors approach effective decision making.

With that in mind, we will move straight to questions and I will begin by asking Paul Sheerin, how do you approach effective decision making?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Yes.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I thank our witnesses for coming along. The session has been very helpful and has given us another dimension to the inquiry that we are undertaking. We will continue to take evidence on effective Scottish Government decision making at future meetings.

That concludes the public part of the meeting. Our next agenda item is a discussion in private on our work programme.

12:07 Meeting continued in private until 12:14.