Chamber and committees

Good morning, and welcome to the 21st meeting in 2023 of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. I hope that everyone has had a good summer recess.

We have received apologies from Michelle Thomson.

Before we start, I thank those who participated so actively in our pre-budget scrutiny event last week in Largs and on the following day in West Kilbride. I know that members had lively and interesting discussions with local people, organisations and businesses about their priorities for the Scottish budget, which will help us with our pre-budget scrutiny. We will publish a summary of the discussions on our website in due course.

I record our thanks to Douglas Lumsden for all his hard work in supporting the committee’s scrutiny. I am pleased to welcome Jamie Halcro Johnston as a new member of the committee. We are also joined by Gordon MacDonald, who attends the meeting as a substitute member in Michelle Thomson’s absence.

I invite first Jamie, and then Gordon, to declare any relevant interests.

Good morning, and welcome to the 20th meeting in 2023 of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. We continue to take evidence on the Scottish Government’s public service reform programme. With names hopefully pronounced correctly—we had some debate at this end of the table—we will hear from Malcolm Burr, chief executive of Comhairle nan Eilean Siar; Robert Emmott, executive director of corporate services at Dundee City Council; and Iain Tough, head of corporate support at East Ayrshire Council. I welcome you all to the meeting. I will allow up to 75 minutes for the session. If witnesses wish to be brought into the discussion at any point, please indicate to the clerks, and I can then call you. We have your written submissions, so we will move straight to questions.

My first question is to Mr Burr. Let us start at the beginning. One of the things that we have been asking about is sustainable services. The submission from the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities used the phrase “fair and sustainable funding”. What does that mean to you, bearing in mind the comment in your written submission that your local authority has had consistently the biggest reduction in revenue funding over the past few years? Will you talk us through that?

No—it was a comprehensive answer. You touched on a couple of things that are mentioned in your written submission. For example, you talked about the need to have a single authority, which is a significant point. You also talked about the difference between the ability of your council and that of others to outsource, which is also significant. I imagine that depopulation has played a part in the reduction in funding. No one ever seems to want to say how much “fair and sustainable funding” is in pounds, shillings and pence.

Do you accept that, as Ross Greer said last week, the Scottish Government does not have multiyear funding, so it is kind of difficult for it to provide multiyear funding for those who depend on it? Is that not a fair comment?

One thing that you are implementing, as everyone is to a degree, is digitalisation. Over what time do you hope to deliver digitalisation, and are you working with other local authorities on that? When I read the reports about local authorities and their work on digitalisation, it seems that everyone is beavering away. I am not sure what level of cross-local authority working there is. For example, we could have similar systems being implemented and possible economies of scale. Where are you on that?

You state in your written submission:

“Monthly online transactions have increased from 1,500 pre-pandemic to over 25,000 monthly, reducing paper handling, improving processing times and transforming service delivery.”

How does that work for people who are not digitally included?

Thank you.

Mr Emmott, I am looking at Dundee City Council’s submission to the committee. One of the questions that we asked was about how the organisation’s plans seek to deliver on the Scottish Government’s three strategic priorities, which were set out. I notice that, in Dundee City Council’s response, you say that you are

“reducing child poverty and inequalities in incomes, education”.

However, you have not expanded on that to say how you will deliver that; it is just a line. Will you expand on that a wee bit, please?

Another thing in your submission that caught my eye, Mr Tough, is the fact that you have transferred 58 assets to community ownership and operation. Obviously, rationalisation of the estate is an important part of the reform agenda. How successful have those transfers been? Have some of the assets had to be handed back, or are all the communities managing to work effectively, albeit one or two of them or perhaps more will need continued support from their local authority? How is that working? Do you believe that other local authorities could learn from East Ayrshire’s model?

Not at all. I will ask you about one more thing, and then I will move on to Mr Burr and open out the rest of the session. It is about the 12 questions that we asked. I was intrigued to note that the response to three of the questions was “Not applicable”. I will ask Mr Burr about the reasons for that in a moment. In Dundee’s submission, you did not respond to questions 10 and 11. Question 10 was one of the questions that Mr Burr also did not respond to. Question 10 was:

“What level of support and guidance has your organisation been given by the Scottish Government to deliver the efficiencies and plans necessary for your organisation, and how adequate has this been?”

Mr Tough responded to that, but I wonder why Dundee did not. What is your view on that? Do you feel that you are not getting the guidance and support?

Mr Burr wants to come back in.

Okay. Time is against us, so I will not push that any further. Thank you for that. I will open the session to colleagues. The first person to ask a question is John Mason, to be followed by Douglas Lumsden.