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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 14 September 2025
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Displaying 3649 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 19 November 2024

Kenneth Gibson

One issue is that, if the Scottish Government is expected to blanket pay for everything, there will be no incentive to reduce costs at local authority or school level, because someone else will be paying for it. That is just human nature.

Going back to the trust issue, you talked about people being willing to come in. Without naming anyone, do you have any examples of people who are willing to do so? As you know, my local authority has outdoor centres, one of which is at Clauchlands on Arran. It is less than 20 years old and cost £5.5 million. Every single year, when the budget comes up, people talk about all the potential savings that can be made, and every single year, one of those savings, which is always rejected by the council, is the closure of the Clauchlands outdoor centre. It is a resource issue rather than a capital issue; the centre has already been built and is already there, but the real issue is staffing. It is always in the paper that Clauchlands is under threat and there is always a stooshie about it locally, but I have not noticed anyone coming in and saying, “You know what, I’m a multimillionaire and I’m quite happy to fund the retention of that facility.”

Therefore, if you think that people from the private or charitable sector will be coming in on a huge, all-Scotland scale, I have to wonder how realistic that is. I know that you have talked about Ireland—I am not sure how much funding has come in there—but, at this point in time, I am not seeing anyone who is willing to chip in money to save something that is threatened with closure, let alone something that is, in effect, backstopped by the Scottish Government.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 19 November 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Ross Greer wants to come back in.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Revenue Scotland

Meeting date: 19 November 2024

Kenneth Gibson

The next item on our agenda is our second annual evidence session with representatives from Revenue Scotland on how it fulfils its functions. I welcome Elaine Lorimer, who is the chief executive, and Aidan O’Carroll, who is the chair of Revenue Scotland.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Revenue Scotland

Meeting date: 19 November 2024

Kenneth Gibson

That is excellent. I was heartened to see that Revenue Scotland’s compliance activity secured £35.5 million in tax, compared to £10.4 million in the preceding year. That is a 241 per cent increase and it represents almost five times the cost of running your entire organisation for a year, so well done. Can you talk the committee through how you achieved that and say whether there is room to increase that further?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Revenue Scotland

Meeting date: 19 November 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Before I bring this love-in to an end, do you have any final points that you want to make to the committee? Is there anything that we have not touched on that you would like to emphasise?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 19 November 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I would have thought that the schools would still be charged, because, if you are a provider and two pupils do not turn up, you have lost a few hundred pounds, unless the school meets that cost—and the school would surely have to pay a second time, when the child was better.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 19 November 2024

Kenneth Gibson

We could be talking about £100 million over three years, which is a very significant amount of money, and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities is obviously nervous about where those funds will be sourced from. It is looking for a guarantee that local government will not be left carrying the can, which is why I asked you whether you think that the funding should be ring fenced. You might be able to set up a trust, and money might come from PEF, but it does not seem to me that that represents a guaranteed source of funding year in, year out, so to speak.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 19 November 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Other colleagues will want to explore some issues further, including one or two that I have not touched on. However, there is one further thing from me. Today, your Holyrood leader called for tax cuts of £1 billion a year. Your party has also called on the Scottish Government to mitigate a number of things such as the situation on winter fuel payments. If we have £1 billion in tax cuts and we mitigate here, there and everywhere—national insurance, blah, blah, blah—where would the bill fit into the list of priorities in a budget in which there would be less money to spend?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 19 November 2024

Kenneth Gibson

We fully appreciate that and, all else being equal, I do not think there would be any argument at all against it. However, we must look at the budget, at teacher numbers and at the cost of outdoor provision. Where do you sit on that?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 19 November 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I think that the issue is the indefinite nature of that sort of funding. Trusts might or might not come in, but the question is how to sustain that funding year in, year out.

I have one other question about the issue of timescales, which was touched on earlier. You are keen for this to start in 2026, but I have to say that there seems to be no build-up to it. The costings suggest almost full delivery in year 1, and I cannot see how that can possibly happen, given that some facilities will have to be refurbished and additional facilities will surely have to come online. Would it not be better for the provision to be scaled up over, say, three years?