Chamber and committees

No. Carry on.

My app did not work. I would have voted no.

My app did not work. I would have voted no.

Yes. We are obviously interested to hear the outcome of the Lord Advocate’s engagement with the Northern Ireland Office. As Helen Nisbet rightly says, it is not for us to take a decision on publication; that is entirely for the Crown Office and the Lord Advocate. It might, however, help to find a way forward on the issue.

It is regrettable that we were informed so late in the day. That has not allowed us to carry out the consultation that we would have liked to carry out. It is becoming a more regular occurrence. We were advised of the bill on the day that it was introduced at Westminster, although some paragraphs had been shared with us beforehand. We will, of course, look at any changes that come and will discuss with the Lord Advocate how she feels that the engagement and the suggestions that she has made have been received by the Northern Ireland Office.

We are, of course, not against the idea of reconciliation—or, possibly, amnesties—as we have already seen under the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. There is no in-principle objection to that; it is just the way in which the proposal has been constructed, with the insertion of the commission into a process that, we believe, undermines the two principles that I have mentioned: the independence of the Lord Advocate and the human rights basis of this Parliament and Government. Those are the two principles that I am highlighting. It must be at least theoretically possible to contrive a commission that can do such things without undermining those principles; this is not, in principle, about the commission itself.

We are trying to consider what would happen if the bill were passed. The effect of that would certainly be to undermine the Lord Advocate’s role, because there would be cases that she could no longer prosecute that she might otherwise want to prosecute. In fact, even if the commission decided not to prosecute, if it decided not to refer a case to the Lord Advocate, there would be nothing that she could do to prosecute a case that she might want to prosecute. That is one of the effects, and it is that effect that we are talking about.

I mentioned the specific articles that some of the human rights organisations have expressed concern about, and we have the same concerns. You know the basis on which the Parliament was founded in relation to human rights. However, it is also true to say, I think, that every Opposition party at Westminster and all the parties in Northern Ireland are similarly concerned about aspects of the bill.

I am trying to point out the practical effects for the Scottish Government and why we would object to them. You asked about the principles of the commission. If the principles of the commission allow for that intervention in the legal system in Scotland in a way that undermines the Lord Advocate’s position, it is a principled objection. It is certainly a principled objection to say that we do not think that the commission is compliant or to say that we have sufficient concerns about compliance with the ECHR. It is a principled objection to the basis on which the commission is founded, rather than to the idea of a commission itself.

That is a difficult question to answer. Certainly, I back the general idea that you want to get as much truth, openness and justice as possible through any such process. However, you cannot get justice if you undermine, on the one hand, the role of the Lord Advocate and, on the other hand, the accepted basis of human rights. In general terms, why would you not support trying to achieve greater truth, transparency and, hopefully, reconciliation? Justice must be at the heart of it, however, and we do not think that justice is served by the bill. All that we can go on, rather than sentiment or hypothesis, is what is presented to us. That is why we are opposing it.

First of all, I concede that there are parts of the bill with which we would have no issue, if they were standing in their own right. However, in the overall context of the bill, there are three areas where we—and human rights organisations in Northern Ireland and elsewhere—think that this Parliament’s ability to comply with its human rights obligations will be undermined.

As I have said, the bill infringes on the Lord Advocate’s independence. Under its provisions, she could not be—as she currently is and as all the parties in the Scottish Parliament have hitherto generally agreed should be the case—the person who decides on all investigations into certain serious offences in Scotland. That is a fundamental objection to the bill; even if some of the bill’s elements are absolutely fine on their own, our objection has to be seen in that context.

You have also asked about the impact on people who suffered during the troubles. This is not just some academic thing; such cases could come to and be tried in Scotland. Perhaps the issue of human rights standards is, as you have suggested, political—although it does not seem to me to be so, given how these matters have not been so contested in the past—but if somebody has been subjected to torture or abuse or knows somebody who has been murdered, it is important that those matters receive due process. The bill would insert a new body into that process in a way that we think would undermine the independence of the Lord Advocate and this Parliament’s role in relation to human rights.

I am not sure that those are necessarily political objections. I think that they are well founded, and they are founded on principles such as the Lord Advocate’s independence and the human rights basis of this Parliament.

Helen, do you want to add anything?

On Mr Greene’s question whether the human rights side of things could be overcome, it might be worth pointing out the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission’s comment that the bill is—and these are its words—“fatally flawed” and that it is “not possible” to make the bill compliant with the European convention on human rights. It has also expressed grave concerns that the

“the Bill is incompatible with Articles 2 (right to life) and 3 (freedom from torture)”

of the ECHR and with the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. There will be a long way to go to overcome those objections.

You are right. There might be laudable purposes behind what is intended, and it might be that, given the exchange and engagement between them, the Lord Advocate and the Northern Ireland Office can find a way around the more fundamental objections. The issues that we have objections about undermine those perhaps laudable purposes. There might well be merit in getting people to come forward without fear of prosecution, but it does not overcome our fundamental objections.

You raised a point about the civil side of things, and it might be best to get someone who is more expert than me to address that point, if that is okay.