Chamber and committees

First of all, it is worth saying that our prisons are subject to pretty stern testing through the inspection regime. The committee might have the prisons inspector come before it. You will very much get the impression that she is her own person, and she will tell the committee what she thinks about prisons. I think that she would generally be fairly complimentary—as others have been—about how the prison system is run. A recent inspection report on HMP Greenock was quite critical of the facilities there, but she was very complimentary about the relationships between prisoners and prison officers.

To answer Pauline McNeill’s question directly, I say that I do not think that we should be afraid to look at radical solutions. The question—which Pauline McNeill mentioned—why there is not a remand prison occurred to me within five minutes of taking on my job. However, we see that there are very good reasons why, when we start to think about it. For example, everybody who is on remand—from Shetland and Orkney down to Dumfries—would have to go to one prison. That would create pressures. However, maybe the question is really about why there is not more specialised provision for remand prisoners. There is in some cases, but sometimes they are part of the general population.

I agree that we should try consistently to improve. The point about lack of fresh air and of other opportunities is, at least in part, due to the response to Covid. It is about prisoners’ safety—their human right to life trumps other rights. However, I say again, to answer the question directly, that we should not be afraid to look at radical solutions. As I said, I have thought about the idea of a remand prison, but it might be more relevant to consider making every prison more adaptable to different populations.

The committee went to Saughton prison and heard evidence about how difficult it is for the prison system to look after prisoners from organised serious crime groups in the same prison. We have also looked very seriously at the situation of women—in Cornton Vale, Dundee and elsewhere—in terms of providing bespoke facilities.

As Pauline McNeill rightly said, there are people to whom we need to have particular regard in terms of mental health provision. Over and above that, there are people with addiction problems. The Scottish Prison Service has to be trauma informed, to quote a phrase, so we should be willing to be radical in how we can achieve that. Perhaps Neil Rennick wants to add to that.

We have not given a priority status that is different from what the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation has recommended. That recommendation is what we have followed. Members will have seen that the same demographic step change is happening in prisons for prisoners who are willing to take the vaccine and for prison officers. Those views have been expressed by police officers, too, but we have followed the JCVI advice.

More recently, we have agreed that we should bundle together prisoners and prison officers in a particular setting, and the health boards are aligning with that to ensure that we drive up those figures.

As I said in my opening remarks, when it comes to what prisons have had to do to respond to the situation, we have had a fantastic response in compliance from inmates and from prison officers. That has been evidenced. I do not deny that we have had outbreaks in prisons. However, it is in the nature of prisons that they are much more vulnerable, and the way that the situation has been dealt with by the prison authorities has been tremendous. We will continue to follow the JCVI advice.

We are content with the draft code of practice; we just want to see the final version first.

I am grateful to the committee for giving me the opportunity to take questions on the LCM for the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill.

I recognise that crime has no respect for borders or boundaries and, as such, must be tackled across multiple jurisdictions. Applying the relevant provisions of the bill to Scotland will help to meet the Scottish Government’s commitment to modernising and reforming the justice system, and to making Scotland a safer, fairer and more inclusive country.

The UK Government’s stated policy aim of the bill is to enhance the democratic accountability of police forces, to build public confidence in policing and to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of emergency services through closer collaboration.

I make it clear that policing is, of course, a devolved matter, so significant portions of the bill do not extend to Scotland, including elements of the bill that many will see as being controversial.

However, some of the provisions impact on devolved functions. On 5 August, the Scottish Government lodged an LCM for those provisions that extend to Scotland, in which it recommended consent for amendments to the Crime (Overseas Production Orders) Act 2019; orders under the Sexual Offences Act 2003 and the Abusive Behaviour and Sexual Harm (Scotland) Act 2016; the extension of the Summary Jurisdiction (Process) Act 1881; the amendment to section 60 of the Police Act 1996; and the extension of the annual reporting duty for the police covenant to cover the British Transport Police and the National Crime Agency.

At the time of lodging the LCM, the Scottish Government was not in a position to be able to recommend consent for the power to extract information from digital devices of witnesses, victims and others, as discussions were still on-going between the former Lord Advocate and UK ministers.

The Lord Advocate had written to UK ministers to ask them to consider the case for extending the provisions on the extraction of information from devices to allow for the extraction of information from devices used by persons other than the deceased. UK ministers have since denied that request.

Although the Lord Advocate and I find that decision disappointing, UK ministers have committed to keeping the provisions under review, once they are in force. That will allow the issue to be returned to, should operational difficulties be identified.

On 30 August, I wrote to UK ministers to recommend, in principle, that the Scottish Parliament grants an LCM in relation to the extraction of data provisions. However, I advised them that I would not be prepared to start the formal LCM process until the draft code of practice had been finalised. That will allow the Scottish Parliament the opportunity to carry out proper scrutiny of the provisions before consenting to them. Incidentally, I think that the Northern Ireland Executive has taken the same position.

I hope that my time at the committee will provide an opportunity to address any concerns, although I am sure that I will rely heavily on Graham Thomson to do that. I welcome the chance to answer any questions.

Apart from the responsibility for ministers, the responsibility lies with the Scottish Prison Service and Teresa Medhurst, who is the chief executive. She has been very open with me about the challenges of dealing with individuals who are involved in serious organised crime—I agree with the member about those challenges. There may well be gratuitous violence, but it is often violence with a purpose, which is seeking to intimidate or do other things. That is a challenge and, incidentally, it is one reason why I would say that the UK Government’s idea of making prisoner officers serve until they are 68 is a nonsense that should be opposed by everybody.

Organised crime is a challenge. We of course look seriously at any reports such as the one that the member mentions. Of course, HMP Addiewell is a private prison, which will revert to the public sector. We will look at the issues, but we will do so in consultation with the people who are most directly affected. The remit of Teresa Medhurst and the Prison Service does not extend to Addiewell while it is a private prison, but we are seized of the issues.

I acknowledge the certainly increasing, and probably unprecedented, level of demand that is put on the Prison Service through accommodating individuals who are involved in serious organised crime. We must acknowledge that that is partly due to the success of the police and others in prosecuting serious organised crime, which means that we are seeing an increasing prison population in that respect.

I cannot speak for my predecessors. Is that a question for Neil Rennick or Don McGillivray?

The youth justice improvement board is looking at that issue and will report back on 15 September. To be clear about the numbers—this perhaps goes back to the concern raised by Mr Greene earlier about remand—just now, there are 11 remanded males and one remanded female, three sentenced males and one male awaiting sentencing. There has been a huge amount of work to get down to those numbers, but we still have further to go.

Scotland’s prosecution system is, of course, a matter for the Lord Advocate. The Lord Advocate is head of the systems for the prosecution of crime in Scotland and exercises those functions independently of any other person.

The Scottish Government has committed an additional £50 million in this year’s budget to support recovery across the justice system, including increased funding to the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service, which reflects our strong support for the vital services that are delivered through those offices. That is in addition to the increased funding that has been provided to the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service in recent years through the annual budget process.

I am happy to come to the chamber at any time to give updates on the extent of the situation in the courts and the impact that that might be having on victims. Members can, of course, propose questions, motions and debates in the Parliament for that.

I acknowledge that remand, in particular, has been an issue because of the backlogs that we have seen. That causes concern and we want to take early initiatives to address that, in addition to the ones that I have already mentioned. However, I am happy to answer future questions on the subject from Pauline McNeill.

To be perfectly honest, I want to get a bit more information about the specific question that Pauline McNeill asked and to find out from those at the front end of the system what their experience has been. However, I am happy to work with Pauline McNeill on those issues.

We remain committed to having the greater number of police officers that I mentioned, which is more than 17,000. That commitment is shared by the chief constable. I am not sure whether the member is suggesting that the chief constable should be instructed to move police officers around the country on the basis of what we think is the best solution. We do not agree with that approach—it is a matter for the chief constable.

It is also worth mentioning that some of the divisional officers that Dean Lockhart referred to have gone on to look at national priorities, such that the division in Fife, along with divisions in other parts of the country, can call on those national facilities, amenities and resources when it is necessary for them to do so. That is the chief constable’s responsibility.

There are more than 12,000 police officers in our local divisions, and, as I mentioned, there are more than 17,000 in Scotland. In Scotland, we have around 32 officers per 10,000 of the population, compared with 22 officers—10 fewer—per 10,000 of the population in England and Wales. As has been the case since we came into office, we will continue to have more officers and to pay them at a higher rate than officers elsewhere in the United Kingdom are paid.