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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 22 May 2025
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Displaying 4264 contributions

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Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 March 2022

John Swinney

That goes back to a point of principle about the purpose of the statute book, which is there for a variety of reasons—to codify and define the rule of law in relation to certain provisions, to provide for clarity on the law in scenarios that happen, have happened and might happen and to provide crystal-clear information to individuals and organisations about their obligations. Those are just three points about the statute book’s purpose. There are provisions in statute that relate to events and circumstances that have never happened, but they provide us with the capacity to deal with such situations should they happen.

On the logic of Mr Simpson’s argument, we should have no civil contingencies legislation, because we have not had to face a civil contingency issue. I argue that the pandemic was pretty close to a civil contingency, which provides the justification for having powers in the statute book that we might never use. If we were to face a situation when we did not have powers in place, that would get us into tricky territory.

The bill is about that fundamental issue. The fundamental issue that I disagree with Mr Simpson about is whether the statute book should be prepared for the different eventualities that might come our way.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 March 2022

John Swinney

That is my justification. There might be a need for us to take action to close or restrict access to boarding school accommodation. We may have to—

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 March 2022

John Swinney

The logic is quite simply that we do not want to take a policy approach in any circumstances that envisages releasing prisoners early. We have had to do that once, in May 2020. Although the Covid threat is still hanging over us, we do not think that that provision for that policy element should be available to us on an on-going basis. However, in other aspects of the bill, we must have a range of options at our disposal to help us to deal with the public health emergency. That is the simple distinction that I would make.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 March 2022

John Swinney

I think that it would, because the powers that are envisaged in the bill can be used only should certain scenarios arise that are in themselves compatible with article 15. The powers are not routine or everyday, and the statute book has other powers in place that can be used only in given circumstances, which could come into the same scope as Mr Hoy outlined.

Without such powers, we would end up with a statute book that was ill prepared for certain emergency circumstances. Given what we have gone through in the past two years and the way in which we have had to address those issues in extremis, that would not be a desirable outcome.

If I think back to the passage of the coronavirus legislation in the previous parliamentary session, although there was a lot of parliamentary good will to get the legislation passed, there were quite a lot of complaints about the fact that we were not doing that in slow time. We would be better to do this carefully, in slow time, and put it into statute but make sure that it can be used only in extremis.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 March 2022

John Swinney

That might be a necessity of its time. However, we do not particularly want to release prisoners out of the necessity of the time.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 March 2022

John Swinney

Mr Simpson is free to lodge an amendment to that effect.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 March 2022

John Swinney

We did that because of the necessity of the situation in relation to Covid, which might require us to take particular steps, as we had to do during the Covid pandemic. As a general rule of thumb, that was not envisaged as a power that was appropriate to be included in legislation of this type on a long-term basis.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 March 2022

John Swinney

Essentially, we are codifying where we can do that and where we believe that we have the basis of so acting to enable us to exercise those powers.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 March 2022

John Swinney

That goes back to the question whether, in principle, we are taking a consolidated route to the handling of the issues that have arisen around the pandemic or taking all those issues out element by element and putting them into the policy development work that we undertake on wider questions around housing and tenancies. I and other ministers have made the choice to put together a bill that, in essence, tries to update the statute book in light of the pandemic experience, instead of taking the compartmentalised approach.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 March 2022

John Swinney

I am simply saying that the Government would not ordinarily want to have the necessity of undertaking that in an emergency.