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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 1 January 2026
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Displaying 4938 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Deaths in Prison Custody

Meeting date: 20 September 2023

John Swinney

That is not quite what I am asking. Is everyone on board?

Criminal Justice Committee

Deaths in Prison Custody

Meeting date: 20 September 2023

John Swinney

I will follow up on the point that Russell Findlay just advanced in relation to the adequacy of the immediate SPS review—I will call it the immediate review—and the immediate health service review of a death in custody. I understand that by statute there is a requirement for a fatal accident inquiry to be undertaken when somebody dies in legal custody. From the perspective of addressing the needs of the families, which you have powerfully put to us this morning, could those processes—I am not sure whether you are familiar with the content of those processes—provide sufficient information in advance of a fatal accident inquiry to, in essence, avoid the need for a fourth process to be added to the system?

Criminal Justice Committee

Deaths in Prison Custody

Meeting date: 20 September 2023

John Swinney

I understand; thank you very much.

Criminal Justice Committee

Deaths in Prison Custody

Meeting date: 20 September 2023

John Swinney

Good morning. I would like to follow on from where Pauline McNeill left off and ask about the interaction between the proposed investigation that would take place and a fatal accident inquiry. Has any thought been given to whether it is possible to have the type of comprehensive independent investigation that has been proposed—I completely understand the rationale for it—while a fatal accident inquiry is pending? We often rub up against the necessity of leaving things until the statutory process that, as you quite correctly say, has to take place in relation to a death in custody has taken place. Has there been any interaction between the group and the Crown on the sequencing of all this?

Criminal Justice Committee

Deaths in Prison Custody

Meeting date: 20 September 2023

John Swinney

Thank you for that. I was struck by your remark that you were cautious about relying on the data about, to summarise what you said, 50 per cent of deaths in custody arising from what one might describe as illness or natural causes. I understand your point about being cautious about that data, because it opens up a discussion about the extent to which being incarcerated exacerbates the decline in individuals’ health and, therefore, what society must do to address that point. Am I correctly understanding the substance behind the point that you make in that observation?

Criminal Justice Committee

Deaths in Prison Custody

Meeting date: 20 September 2023

John Swinney

I want to move on to the composition of the deaths in prison custody action group. Do you think that everyone is rowing in the same direction?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 13 September 2023

John Swinney

I will follow up on that point. I assume that you have seen the submission that the committee received from the Association of Scottish Police Superintendents. The fourth paragraph on page 3 says that

“The Scottish Government do have clear Strategic Objectives, but the public services are not sufficiently linked in at the tactical and operational levels.”

I am interested in that point, because it throws up the challenges that police officers experience because of the wider social questions that they face. I appreciate and have seen at first hand some of those challenges, having spent time with your officers in my constituency. However, when I saw the point that was made by the Association of Scottish Police Superintendents, it struck me that it is an area that is in need of further development. What is Police Scotland doing to drive the degree of connection that will be essential in ensuring that vulnerable members of the public can be supported through integrated services that stretch beyond what Police Scotland can do? How is Police Scotland enabling that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 13 September 2023

John Swinney

Okay. Thank you.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 13 September 2023

John Swinney

That involves providing the necessary challenge to ensure that, from the public-interest point of view, policing approaches are commensurate with having exhausted every avenue for efficiency and effectiveness.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 13 September 2023

John Swinney

This will use up my slot, convener, because it is on exactly the same territory.

I do not want, in any way, to give off any non-encouraging tones here, but I am interested in why this has not happened before. I really welcome what is going on here, so please do not take anything discouraging from what I say. However, the COPFS submission, on page 19 of our briefing, states:

“This has been achieved without any additional funding or the need for legislation.”

Mr McQueen said that, in the pilot, there is now proper case management by sheriffs.

When I think about all that the criminal justice system wrestles with—the backlogs, the frustration around witness citations and the time that it takes for cases to be handled—it begs the question why this has not been done before and what else could be going on.