Skip to main content
Loading…

Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

Filter your results Hide all filters

Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 18 May 2025
Select which types of business to include


Select level of detail in results

Displaying 4236 contributions

|

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

John Swinney

Corroboration strikes me as a fundamentally different concept from the not proven verdict.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

John Swinney

It is totally different, as recent judgments tell us.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

John Swinney

I will try to draw some points out from what Mr Duffy has already said. The experience that you recounted about your participation as a jury member is insightful and brings further weight to the long-term argument that you, your wife and your family have pursued with such vigour and distinction.

However, it strikes me that your argument is, essentially, that the not proven verdict is a product or symptom of a lack of clarity in the judicial system. Is that a fair summary? You made a powerful plea for us not to bother defining it but, in a sense, because it cannot be defined, it can mean almost anything.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

John Swinney

You used the term “middle ground”, and that might be the best way of explaining people’s view of the verdict. Whether we like it or not, there is an encouragement to believe that the not proven verdict is a middle ground, but it is not: it is on one side of the line, because it is essentially equivalent to being found not guilty. That has the potential to create confusion in the jury room about what people are feeling and about the conclusion that they come to.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

John Swinney

So you can see the argument for a reduction in the size of juries, but a higher threshold for conviction.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

John Swinney

What concerns would you have about the triangle of issues——jury size, majority versus supermajority and not proven—that I just mentioned? Would you simply not put them in that framework? Would you encourage me to stop thinking about them in that way?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

John Swinney

Thank you for that. Last week, when we took evidence from the academics who were behind the jury research, I was struck by their argument about the interaction between jury size, the question of a majority versus supermajority within a jury and the presence or absence of the not proven verdict, and we laboured over the relationship between those three factors.

Essentially, Sandy Brindley has just put on record the question whether the correct decisions have been arrived at, as opposed to whether we are making a change here by abolishing the not proven verdict, on which Mr Duffy has made his beliefs clear.

Are we answering that question alone, or a hypothetical question about how we maintain convictions at the current level as opposed to what may be the correct level?

Meeting of the Parliament

Fiscal Framework Review

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

John Swinney

Will the member give way?

Meeting of the Parliament

Fiscal Framework Review

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

John Swinney

Will the member give way on that point?

Meeting of the Parliament

Fiscal Framework Review

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

John Swinney

Having negotiated the inaugural fiscal framework, in 2016, I know and appreciate how difficult a challenge it is for the Scottish Government to secure a broadly acceptable set of financial arrangements with the United Kingdom Treasury. I therefore warmly commend the Deputy First Minister for securing the agreement that was announced some weeks ago, which is the subject of today’s debate.

In essence, the agreement builds on the agreement that was put in place in 2016. Crucially, the agreement embeds on a permanent basis the use of the indexed per capita mechanism for calculating block grant adjustments. That was the key issue of negotiation in 2016. I say to Brian Whittle that there would have been no fiscal framework agreement in 2016 if that provision had not been in place, and I constantly made that expressly clear to committees of this Parliament.

I am very sorry that Willie Rennie is not here for my speech, because I am going to mention him. I am reminded that, in 2016, he said to the First Minister at the time that the Scottish Government had made a fundamental error in accepting the model, because we would never be able to protect it at the point of review. The Deputy First Minister has not only protected the model at the point of review but has embedded it permanently, which we were unable to secure in 2016. That is a formidable achievement.

The model that underpins the fiscal framework is essential in protecting Scotland’s public finances, because we already carry population risk in the Barnett formula, and the indexed per capita mechanism was necessary to provide long-term stability.