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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 19 May 2025
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Displaying 4236 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

When reading the submissions, all that I am seeing are all the reasons for not doing something. The committee must address the reforms, which, by necessity, are significant. If we take a piecemeal approach, which, if I may say so, is what the submissions seem to me to be suggesting should happen, we will be back having this conversation in 10, 20 or 30 years’ time. Do you see my dilemma?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

Thank you. That was very helpful.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

Do you not think that the difference between there being a jury and there not being a jury, given the very helpful distinction that Mr Di Rollo put on the record between impressionistic, performative issues for the jury and analytical presentation to a judge, would fundamentally affect the experience of a complainer? I cannot for a moment imagine that your line of questioning to a witness would be the same in those two different contexts.

11:45  

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

Do any of the other witnesses want to reflect on my points?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

Is the Law Society active in protecting the interests, perspectives and experiences of complainers and victims who have been on the receiving end of what all of us would judge to be inappropriate conduct?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

That analogy is fair, and I accept it, but my point was that there must also be a regulatory element, because I worry about conduct.

The profession is very exercised about all aspects of supposed interference in its regulation. I have heard that over many years. However, some people are ill served. In my humble opinion, the profession does not have the strongest foundation for its position.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

My question follows directly on from that point. Mr Di Rollo told us that he appears in cases in front of judges and it is an analytical experience, if I can express it that way. Is there something philosophically wrong with that concept? Sheila Webster and Mr Lenehan talked about the importance of being judged by your peers, but juries are selected from the full range of the population. On juries that are looking at sexual assault cases involving 18 and 20-year-olds, there will be a lot of 50-year-old men and 60-year-old women who, frankly, in my humble opinion, grew up in a different world from the one that we now live in. I speak as a just-about-to-be-60-year-old man—it is full disclosure here today.

I am struck by Mr Di Rollo’s earlier point that his cases are heard by a judge, which is fine. Everyone says that that is okay, so what is wrong with it in these cases?

13:00  

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

My point is that Mr Di Rollo has put on the record that he is able to stand in front of a judge and get an analytical experience and a statement of reasons, and I am asking whether there is something philosophically wrong with that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

Okay—we will hear from Mr Di Rollo in a second, which I look forward to.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

The problem that I have with that is that, last week, we had six witnesses in front of us who had all been involved in sexual offences cases, and they would not say that that was their experience.

Let me place a quote from Lady Dorrian on the record. I thought that it was an incredibly powerful quote from her appearance before the committee on 10 January. She said:

“We have, of course, managed to bring in the changes in the way in which juries are directed and so on, but even if they were brought in rapidly, they are still being done in a piecemeal way. They are not being done in a principled way, with the underpinning of a whole court that is dedicated to trauma-informed practices.

One of the things that we said in the report was that, if we do not seize the opportunity to create the culture change from the ground up that Mr Swinney spoke about, there is every risk that, in 40 years, my successor and your successors will be in this room having the same conversation.”—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 10 January 2024; c 22-23.]

I found that to be a powerful comment because it addressed directly the argument about piecemeal change that we are wrestling with—that is what I have heard—versus a substantial departure from some of the traditional norms that Sheila Webster talked about, which can be very off-putting to individuals involved in the judicial system.

I am keen to understand the reluctance to fully absorb and incorporate the ground-up culture change that Lady Dorrian talked about. I worry that Parliament might legislate in one part of the bill for trauma-informed practice, but not see it happen in courts throughout the country.