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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 20 May 2025
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Displaying 4236 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Swinney

I am interested, philosophically, in how members of the legal profession can, in essence, say that they will not follow the rule of law, if Parliament agrees to the legislation.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Swinney

You are picking and choosing what law you are going to follow, are you not, Mr Brown?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Swinney

You will understand my confusion here, Mr Brown. You have just said that there is a good reason for the rules that are in place for the faculty. The process is not concluded yet, but Parliament may well legislate for juryless trials in this bill. I want to understand what message the association’s stance will send to the wider public in Scotland, when members of the legal profession are not prepared to adhere to the rule of law, although you have told the committee that there is good reason for advocates to be under the obligation that they are under.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Swinney

That answer rather suggests that your view should prevail and not the view of the democratically elected Parliament of Scotland, which has the constitutional power to make the law.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Swinney

I am no longer an advocate or spokesman for the Scottish Government. I am here as a member of the Parliament, trying to understand how, in a constitutional democracy, if the Parliament legislates for something, those who believe in the rule of law are allowed to say, “We are having nothing to do with the rule of law” in that respect; whereas there is good reason why others in the profession—for example, as you said, the Faculty of Advocates—must participate in the process.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Swinney

Surely, that is the very point of your proposed boycott. You are saying that judge-only trials will somehow not be fair—

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Swinney

—despite the fact that they happen on countless other issues, around the country, all the time. They will be happening at this minute.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Swinney

If the association believes in the rule of law, on what basis do your members have the right not to follow the rule of law?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Swinney

That rather matters to Parliament as well, and especially to those of us who believe in the rule of law.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Swinney

I do not follow the point that you have made in this argument. You have accepted that Parliament has the right to legislate in those areas. If that is the case, and if Parliament has decided that that is to be the structure of our criminal justice system, that is the definition of the law. I do not understand how members of the profession, who will do as you have done today and profess that they support the rule of law, can actually fulfil that and hold the position that you have set out, if the democratic institutions have decided that that is an appropriate step for us to take.