Chamber and committees

I welcome the cabinet secretary’s commitment to discuss my amendments. Will she accept the need for co-ordinated and coherent research and monitoring if the legislation is to be successful and have an impact? Does she accept that we must think through the implications for those who will be affected by it? Whether or not they want to take the opportunity of using the simplified GRC process, there will be more interest in the topic. That puts an onus on the Scottish Government to review, in a couple of years’ time, what the impact has been and what further work is needed from the Scottish Government and its agencies, as well as in public life more generally.

There are two parts to your response, as there are two elements of my amendment 149. I am pleased with your comments about MAPPA, and I want to consider that matter in detail after the meeting, because I have not seen the letter to which you referred. However, at least you are reaching out in the direction of specifically addressing the issue of bad actors.

The first element of my amendment is there because, from looking at experiences in other legislatures, it seems that there is a need for support to be in place. I was disappointed that the cabinet secretary did not accept my amendment 139, which was designed to enable people to get the support that they need, given the likelihood that more people will use the opportunity to transition. That goes back to making sure that there is a review to ensure that a variety of support services are in place. I have not been specific on exactly how you do that, with the intention of enabling the Scottish ministers to use their judgment on the issue.

I come back to the point that changes will be made and, from looking at other legislatures, it seems that the Government needs to plan ahead and think about the potential impacts of the legislation once it is passed and people can use it.

Amendment 139 would require the Scottish ministers to carry out a review into the impact of the bill on gender identity healthcare. The overarching aim of the amendment is that such a review should have the gravity of the Cass review in England; however, it would also enable the Scottish ministers to consult on its remit. Subsection 3 would require any review to consider how access to and provision of gender identity healthcare could be improved.

Amendment 139 comes on the back of the evidence that the committee heard on the provision of trans healthcare, including the Cass review, which is currently taking place in England. It seeks not to delay the bill—as, I understand, was called for by a minority on the committee—but to strike a balance to ensure that a review happens in line with paragraph 289 of the committee’s stage 1 report.

I have spoken to a number of constituents, who shared opinions both for and against elements of the bill. However, I hope that we would get broad support for amendment 139, to ensure that anyone who goes through the GRC process and wants to receive gender identity healthcare is able to do so.

Last week, in discussion of an earlier grouping, I mentioned the waiting times at gender identity clinics. Currently, trans people experience significant delays in receiving treatment from clinics. The bill could increase the number of people who try to access that service, which would exacerbate the demand on it. That issue needs to be monitored.

Amendment 139 would ensure that, in implementing the bill, the Scottish Government would take steps to ensure that its consequences are fully understood and that services for trans people adapt to meet their needs as those change.

I note that amendment 140 is similar; it is slightly more narrowly focused, I think. I therefore hope that Rachael Hamilton might support my amendment, which I think is more beneficial.

In addition, amendment 139 sits alongside Pam Duncan-Glancy’s amendments 145, 146 and 147. It is aimed at ensuring that there is a commitment to having a review of what is important legislation—within two years of royal assent, I have suggested—to make sure that the implications of the bill and the changes that it brings around in society are carefully monitored, and that the strains that are already on support and healthcare are addressed, properly reviewed, monitored and acted on. Amendment 139 leaves to the Scottish Government the capacity to decide on the detail of that, but at least commits it to doing that review.

That would be helpful. Table 1 in the report that we commissioned lists key areas—including environmental protection, animal health and welfare, chemicals, plant health, food standards and police and judicial co-operation, to name just a few—and notes whether alignment in each of them is devolved. If we consider the information that the Scottish Government will have held over the past 23 years, we will start off with a database. We would be very interested to receive feedback from the cabinet secretary with clarity about alignment and non-alignment, as well as the timing. Thank you.

The issue is where you have decided not to align. You say that it would be too much work to routinely scrutinise everything, but surely there needs to be a process whereby Parliament can at least ask questions about where you have decided not to align and why. You have given us examples of a couple of policy issues around industry and agriculture, but should that not be tested? Should it not be visible so that people can agree or disagree with the Government’s decisions? Should we not have clarity of process and timing on the issue?

I am glad that the cabinet secretary and his team can see the work that we are doing on the issue. It is very clear that we need as much transparency as possible. The discussion so far has been about where the Government intends to align, but can you clarify where you do not intend to align? That is critical to businesses, environmental organisations and others, who need to know where EU law will continue to apply. Where are you not convinced that we should retain alignment?

Amendment 128 builds on the recommendation in point 278 of the committee’s stage 1 report. The aim of the amendment is to require the Scottish ministers to

“take steps to ensure that ... appropriate support and information”

is put in place to support any

“individuals who are considering”

and/or who make

“an application for a gender recognition certificate”.

In my opinion, the wording of the amendment gives the flexibility that we need. It would be for Scottish ministers to determine what the appropriate support and information is, but the flexibility will ensure that the information and support that is provided can be tailored to the needs of an individual and can change over time, as required, as a result of experience with the legislation.

The committee recommended in its stage 1 report that the Scottish Government should commit to putting in place “appropriate support and signposting”, and I strongly welcome that recommendation. It followed evidence that the committee heard, particularly that from the children’s commissioner, who said in oral evidence:

“Protection and participation rights are not mutually exclusive, and we are looking for a process that recognises not only the growing autonomy of young people but the need to support and protect them.”—[Official Report, Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee, 24 May 2022; c 13.]

That evidence reflects the concerns that have been raised with me by constituents across the Lothians who have already gone through the process of obtaining a GRC. They definitely welcome the simplification of the process for the future. However, they have highlighted to me that it would have been much more helpful for them to have signposting, advice and support. They would have welcomed that before they transitioned, so they think that, for the future, particularly given that more people are likely to take the opportunity of applying for a GRC, support must be provided for them.

In some cases, it could be health support and intervention. However, the latest Public Health Scotland data for June 2022 shows that only 70 per cent of children and young people who were referred to child and adolescent mental health services were seen within the 18-week target waiting time. Similarly, the waiting times for gender identity clinics currently range anywhere from one-and-a-half to three years, so there is an issue about ensuring that a range of advice is available for people. I reiterate that it should not be focused solely on medical support and/or intervention, although that is important, but a range of non-medical advice and support, including from the public and voluntary sectors, could be provided to people who are considering going through the GRC process.

We are looking for signposting and a commitment in principle, but I have been careful not to be specific because I am conscious that if the amendment is too specific the cabinet secretary will no doubt immediately rule me out of order. I am trying to frame my amendment in a way that I hope will be helpful and reflect what the committee concluded from the evidence that it heard.

I move amendment 128.

You said that words in my amendment were legally challengeable, and you specified “appropriate support”. What would be legally challengeable in that phrase? I kept it so that it is not heavily detailed in order to give you flexibility in defining what would be appropriate—it would be for ministers to judge what was appropriate.

It is good to hear people’s views on the matter. I have no objection to Christine Grahame’s amendment. It is good, because it would provide a formal process for applying for a gender recognition certificate, but there are wider issues to address before someone gets to that stage, when they need information and support.

Having a wider range of support is critical, which is why I was keen for Scottish ministers to be able to decide what the steps are. For example, there is interdepartmental work across different Government departments such as education and health where wider support is needed. We must also think about the range of available support, because the Scottish Government will no doubt fund the provision of support, not only within Government but with third sector organisations and charities, which the Government does already. I was trying to be helpful in saying that that does not happen at the moment.

I heard that debate.