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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 21 October 2025
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Displaying 662 contributions

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Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]

Wellbeing and Sustainable Development (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 October 2025

Sarah Boyack

It is useful to hear how things have actually changed, where the strengths are and where things are still challenging for public sector bodies.

Professor Reid, I want to ask about the guidance for public sector bodies in Scotland, in terms of both the pressures that they are under and the possibility that the bill’s requirement to take action according to the wellbeing and sustainable development principles could legitimise action in organisations where the issues might not otherwise be seen as taking centre stage, as Professor Jones said. Can you talk about that?

Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]

Wellbeing and Sustainable Development (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 October 2025

Sarah Boyack

I was thinking about the guidance and the fact that there could be an investigation. It seems that, in Wales, that approach has raised the bar for public authorities. If we did that here, would that help to address the sustainable development principles—which, as you said, have been identified 35 times in legislation over the past 20-odd years—and raise the wellbeing issue up the agenda?

Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]

Wellbeing and Sustainable Development (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 October 2025

Sarah Boyack

I appreciate that you are short of time, convener, so I will stop at that point.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]

Wellbeing and Sustainable Development (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 October 2025

Sarah Boyack

So, just having it as a requirement on paper is not enough. That is why I asked about the experience in Wales of having the commissioner follow up such reports and ask questions, which means that there is not just guidance but, importantly, a potential investigation, which could affect a body’s reputation. To what extent do you think that public bodies would take proactive action to avoid reputational damage and engage in the sort of collaboration that we have seen in Wales if we had similar provisions in place here?

Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]

Wellbeing and Sustainable Development (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 October 2025

Sarah Boyack

I want to ask—

Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]

Wellbeing and Sustainable Development (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 October 2025

Sarah Boyack

Apologies, convener. This was going to be my last question anyway. I will try to keep it sharp.

Earlier, there was a reference to the Carnegie UK report about alternative ways of doing things in relation to future generations, parliamentary committees and so on. Do you have any thoughts about what could be done in that regard if we did not have a body with potential investigatory powers and the ability to provide guidance? We have the national performance framework, but, without that focus, how would a future generations commissioner be able to apply pressure and support public sector bodies? How could the elements of the bill involving the definition and the requirement to have regard to wellbeing and sustainable development be implemented?

Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]

Wellbeing and Sustainable Development (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 October 2025

Sarah Boyack

That is very much appreciated. It has been good to listen to committee colleagues’ questions.

I will kick off, Professor Jones, by asking you about a couple of your earlier answers on the extent to which public bodies have improved their actions in relation to these issues since the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales was established. You referenced modest change and the maturity of public bodies over the past decade. Will you give us some practical examples to evidence what you meant by that? Is it preventative spending? Is it policy direction? Will you give us some examples, just to bring it to life?

Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]

Wellbeing and Sustainable Development (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 October 2025

Sarah Boyack

That is really useful. The 2015 act has changed the landscape.

I have a question about the fact that all public sector bodies are under pressure but do not have unlimited funding, which makes that collaborative approach important. Have you seen a difference in the decisions made by public sector bodies because of preventative spending or longer-term thinking ? Has the act legitimised that kind of approach?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Sarah Boyack

I will ask some questions about liability and how it is defined in the bill. The bill proposes thresholds of “intent or recklessness” for individuals and “consent or connivance” for responsible individuals in an organisation. Some of the substantial amount of written evidence that we have received suggests that those are very high thresholds for accountability, and that the thresholds should also include negligence. It has also been suggested that there should be strict liability for individuals or organisations, or the penalisation of neglect on the part of responsible individuals, as is the case in other environmental legislation.

I am keen to get views from witnesses on how the bill is drafted. Do you support the approach to liability?

Dr Fifield, you are nodding your head. Is that deliberate? Are you happy with the bill as currently drafted?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Sarah Boyack

As none of the other witnesses wants to come in on that, I will move to the next question, which is about how vicarious liability for the acts of employees or agents is separate from acts of directors and so on who are at fault. Jamie Whittle mentioned the Wildlife and Natural Environment (Scotland) Act 2011. How does that relate to what is in the bill? Are you happy with how it is all set out?