Chamber and committees

Based on what you have said, then, is it fair to say that, in making reforms, you quite often need to spend money at the beginning to save money at the end? Is that something that the Government should consider? I know that there is the £50 million for the recovery programme, but would you say that reforms could receive funding at the beginning of all this if it could be demonstrated that savings would come towards 2026 or 2027? Is that fair?

We heard evidence from the police service that virtually no more savings can be made. Transformational change and moving to a single service have used up a lot of that room. I think that you said something similar. It sounds like we are hearing comparable evidence from the fire service and police service that there is nowhere else to go.

Do you have concerns that we might lose fire service officers from the front line if there is no satisfactory pay settlement? Do you have any concerns about retaining firefighters in the long run?

In your last sentence, you said that you are monitoring police officers leaving and coming back as civilians. Are you suggesting that they would not be able to do that because it is encouraging them to take retirement if they come back as civilians? Is that what you meant?

Good morning. My question has kind of been covered. I was going to ask about the implications of having a flat cash budget. You have outlined stark terms to the committee, and I want to confirm that I have understood things correctly.

I will start with David Page. All three witnesses seem to be saying that, if the issue is not resolved, there will be a serious reduction in service and, perhaps more fundamentally, a change in the model that we have been used to of an exemplary Scottish police force. I agree with Jamie Greene. The role that the force has played in Scotland, and its exemplary record on big events, is different from the model in other forces across the UK.

I presume that you have put that to the cabinet secretary and to the Scottish Government. Given what you have outlined to the committee, which is very concerning, what response are you getting from the Government on the stark reality if a flat cash settlement remains in place for the next four years?

Lynn Brown, have you similarly expressed those views to the Government, and what response are you getting?

When you talk about a reduction of 4,400 staff, do you mean staff and not officers, or is it a mix of staff and officers?

What we have heard this morning is stark and concerning, but we have not even got to an issue that we have already heard about in evidence, which is the number of police officers that have retired or indicated that they will retire. Given what the panel has said about the flat cash settlement, the savings that you have already made and the pressure that is on you with regard to staffing and police officer numbers, what impact is the impending retirement of police officers having? Do you have up-to-date figures on that?

We have previously seen figures for officers who have indicated that they will retire with 30-years’ service or retire early. There is some relationship to pension changes, although the federation has said that that is not the only reason why we are losing police officers. It said that morale in the force is low.

A few months ago, I raised with the First Minister the issue of officers complaining of their leave being cancelled at the last minute and of their not being given proper welfare treatment and so on, and the suggestion that that is the reason why we are losing officers. Can you comment on the impact of that issue? Any update on the retirement figures would be very welcome.

Good afternoon. I will go back to the issue of pay. Mr Haggart, you told my colleague Katy Clark that the pay negotiations were taking place at the NJC at national level. There is talk of a 5 per cent pay increase, and Katy Clark already said that it looks like that is likely to be rejected. If the NJC arrives at a figure, whether it is 5 per cent, 6 per cent or something else, do you simply have to implement that figure out of your existing budget? I know that you have a seat round the table but could a decision be made in a national forum on a figure that you would just have to implement regardless?

Thank you. Perhaps you cannot answer my next question and it needs to be asked of the chief constable. I raised the issue before. We can see how concerning the situation is, based on those numbers. One of the reasons that police officers are choosing to retire is the conditions that they are working in. For example, as I said, they are having their rest days and holidays cancelled at the last minute.

Do not answer this question if you feel that it is for the chief constable, but has there been any response to that? As an organisation, you would want to try to retain those police officers and their experience given the stark points that you have outlined to the committee. Are you able to say about how you will try to address that?

The letter contains very little information for us to go on. I take the view that there is a wider issue about access to criminal and civil justice and that people should have affordable access to what happens in their court cases. I do not know what the charge is—I do not know anything about that—but I assume that it is quite expensive, because a scheme would not otherwise be being created. I cannot comment further on that.

For me, there is a wider issue. Constituents have told me that they found it really difficult to get the transcripts of their court cases. There is probably not enough time in this committee’s agenda to deal with the wider issue but, if a commitment has been made and the Lord President is commenting on the matter, we probably need to pursue it, to make sure that that element of the system is in place.