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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 15 May 2025
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Displaying 1190 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

Pauline McNeill

Yes. I am really struggling.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

Pauline McNeill

Good morning. In response to Sharon Dowey’s line of questioning, Teresa Medhurst said that Kilmarnock has a one-tier staffing structure whereas SPS has two tiers. I was aware of that, and I think that one of the reasons why Serco said that they ran HMP Kilmarnock more cheaply than SPS was that it did not have the same grading structure. Does that mean that the figures that you have outlined incorporate going to a two-tier structure? Presumably, that will be a lower pay or higher pay structure.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

Pauline McNeill

Will we just wait and hear when that work is done?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

Pauline McNeill

Anyone who has ever appeared in court as a witness will probably have found it quite a traumatic experience. From what you have described, nothing is black and white, and questions can be confusing. Is there a way of drawing a distinction? To me as a layperson, there are people who have had trauma in their lives, there is the trauma of someone who is the victim in the case—the trauma that that person experienced that has to come out—and there is the court experience, which can itself be traumatic. Would you agree that there are different elements to be considered?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

Pauline McNeill

You certainly convinced me. You answered a lot of practical questions for me. That is where my line of questioning comes from—trying to apply all this to a system that, as John Watt said, is not the same, in that you all do different things.

My first question is to Laura Buchan from the Crown Office. David Fraser said that we have a court system with limited capacity to prevent what victims always complain about, which is the trauma of bumping into the person they have accused. I have had this conversation with the Lord Advocate at least once: the trauma of victims trying to find out where their cases are is a significant factor. I support all that has been said, but I am a bit concerned that we do not fix the things that are causing lots of trauma. As I said to the earlier panel, I am a layperson trying to understand that there is the trauma that people have had in their lives before they were offended against, there is the trauma of people who have been offended against and there is the trauma of what the system is doing to them. Can anything be done to make the information from the Crown easier to access?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

Pauline McNeill

What do you mean by “gateway”? In simple terms, if you are a victim of crime, or even a witness who has been called, should you not be able to call someone easily, get through and ask where your case is likely to be in the pipeline? Is that fair?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

Pauline McNeill

Thank you.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

Pauline McNeill

Good morning; I apologise for being late.

This question follows on from Katy Clark’s line of questioning. I am trying to apply this to an adversarial court system. What you said about preparation of witnesses and victims makes perfect sense, because we need to have a system that brings out what they have to say. We hear all the time from victims that they did not feel that they had a voice. However, I am interested in applying what you are saying to the court situation, where there are practitioners—the prosecution, the defence and the judge—who should be trauma informed. Is it your expectation that everyone should treat every witness who comes to court in the same way? A prosecutor will not know whether the person had adverse childhood experiences, and some people will not have. Is it your view that a trauma-informed approach should be applied regardless of the circumstances?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

Pauline McNeill

This has just crossed my mind and you will probably not be able to answer it, but up until now, a trauma-informed approach has not been embedded in the system. However, juries—in cases in which there is a jury—have to make a determination based on what they see in court. Is there any evidence at all that you have come across in relation to juries and trauma? You will probably not have spoken to jurors, but do you agree that it is important to establish what the situation is in that regard? Ordinary people in juries watch the proceedings, and I would have thought that they would be able to read a person’s body language. Would people really need to be trained or could they see for themselves? Have you considered the reaction of juries?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

Pauline McNeill

It has struck me that, if we are being honest, successive Governments and Parliaments have tried to get a shift into community justice. That is my view.

We do not have time for you to answer my question, so perhaps you could follow it up with the committee. It would be helpful for our report, given the good evidence that we have had from you. First, what exact numbers are you dealing with? We do not have any sense of that. Secondly, and to wrap up, what I am hearing is that if you had even £250,000 or £500,000 more, you could do something with that. To quote Bill Fitzpatrick, you should not be given a penny more until you can justify it. I agree with that because public and judiciary confidence are essential to move it forward.

Could you follow up with the committee on the numbers and also give us some indication of whether, if you had the additional budget, you could hit the ground running with the things that would give the public and judiciary confidence that, instead of sentencing people to prison, they can sentence them to community services?