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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 24 August 2025
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Displaying 1838 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

That makes sense. Thank you.

My final question might be more difficult to answer. We are wrestling with who does what and the complexities of the interactions between different authorities. The bill’s whole purpose is to simplify the system for the public, but what differences will the public see as a result? Are some parts of it worth highlighting to the public?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

It is interesting that you have chosen that. From the start of our consideration of the bill, I have always seen it as something that we should have, because it should be enshrined. I presume that police officers are trained in such duties and that they are covered in recruitment processes. I have to say that I am unaware of any particular issues involving police officers not investigating; I have just seen the provision as something that we should have on the statute book. What you have said implies that you have had some problems with police officers, and I have never heard that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

Thank you. The convener will be happy.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

Does that mean that someone decides the line between excessive force and assault before the complaint goes to the PIRC?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

So, you would not look at a simple allegation of assault. You would just send it up to the PIRC.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

In other words, some evidence that there was an assault.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

What is the right point in time?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

I am sorry—yes. She has had many jobs.

Meeting of the Parliament

Post Office (Horizon System) Offences (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

Before we get to stage 2, would it be possible to get some information about the cases that have been before the criminal appeal court and any information about what is in the pipeline? It would be useful to know how many cases we might be dealing with.

Meeting of the Parliament

Post Office (Horizon System) Offences (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

The chain of wrongdoing that we have discussed today is a long one, indeed. It goes beyond the Post Office to include the Fujitsu engineers and officials who knew that they were abusing the system in order to get accounts to balance.

James Arbuthnot played a pivotal role in helping sub-postmasters to achieve justice. He never gave up and was never brushed off. Katy Clark and other MPs at the time were well aware of the controversy, so why were others unaware of it?

Fergus Ewing and Jamie Greene are correct to say that lessons must be learned. As Alasdair Allan highlighted, for hundreds of otherwise law-abiding people—who ran small businesses up and down the country and were important figures in their communities, helping people with their pensions, savings and benefits—the very role that they played in those communities was the one that hurt them, because of this unlawful scandal.

Sub-postmasters signed contracts to make good any losses. Why would 800 or so of them then defraud themselves of thousands of pounds, knowing that they would face criminal proceedings? That does not make a great deal of sense.

Even the helpline that was set up to help sub-postmasters to deal with the Horizon computer system was said to be an utter nightmare. People were kept on hold for hours on end when they were trying to learn how to use the system and could not get the money to balance. That was a tell-tale sign, in itself.