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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 23 August 2025
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Displaying 1838 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

You would agree that they should still make the distinction between criminal behaviour and gross misconduct, which might be something completely different.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

But those are criminal cases.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

Okay. I will ask you about the bits of the bill that you do not support. Is that because you think that it works better to have a joint role between the PIRC and HMICS?

Meeting of the Parliament

General Question Time

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

To ask the Scottish Government what its position is on the amount of time that Police Scotland currently spends responding to calls related to mental health issues. (S6O-03480)

Meeting of the Parliament

Post Office (Horizon System) Offences (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

Like Maggie Chapman’s amendments, my amendments 5, 6, 11, 12 and 14 would expand the provision for the exoneration of individuals to include those who have a close connection with someone who is alleged to have committed an offence, as the legislation previously describes.

On the case mentioned, Mr Naga and his mother appeared on petition in Greenock sheriff court on 23 June 2009. They were charged with the theft of £35,000 from the post office. Mr Naga was not employed officially at the post office at that time; he helped out where needed. He understandably pled guilty as part of a plea deal that would see the charges against his mother dropped.

He did not work in the post office, and I do not think that his conviction is covered by the bill. He pled guilty, even though he was innocent, to save his mother from a jail sentence, and he was given a community service order. During that time he contracted tuberculosis and almost died. He had a pretty terrible time. Mr Naga is as much a victim of the Horizon scandal as anyone else. I appreciate that his is just one case, but I hope that members listening will take in the point that the principle is the same as for all other cases. As the policy memorandum states, tainted evidence was used to convict and to get admissions from many others who might be covered by the bill.

Meeting of the Parliament

Post Office (Horizon System) Offences (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

No, it is not live.

Meeting of the Parliament

Post Office (Horizon System) Offences (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

Convener, this is the one amendment that I will move.

Amendment 6 moved—[Pauline McNeill].

Meeting of the Parliament

Post Office (Horizon System) Offences (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

That is the salient point here. The bill is meant to capture cases where the tainted evidence from Horizon was used to convict people, whether there was an admission or not.

Mr Naga was charged, along with his mother, on petition, for stealing £35,000, which clearly did not happen at all. It is interesting that their bank accounts were not checked. I raised that point during the debate on Tuesday: the veracity of the prosecutions needs to be considered. We might think that, if £35,000 went missing, there would be some checks as to where the money went.

Page 10 of the policy memorandum clearly states:

“the Bill is anticipated to have a positive impact on all those who have been impacted by the use of tainted evidence provided by the Post Office in criminal cases.”

What do members need to look at other than page 10 of the Government’s policy memorandum? We must ensure that no victims of this horrendous scandal are left to suffer because of loopholes in the legislation. I believe that the bill would be defective if it did not capture all the cases where tainted evidence was used. The appeal court is a route for all cases, and six have been heard and overturned, but the quickest, safest and fairest way is to capture in the bill all those affected in cases where tainted evidence was used to convict people.

Meeting of the Parliament

Post Office (Horizon System) Offences (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

That was helpful, but can the cabinet secretary confirm whether it is her view that cases such as those to which Maggie Chapman and I referred, in which the person was not employed but they assisted, would be covered by that provision even in circumstances—as I would have thought would be the case—where the person pled on the basis of tainted evidence? Addressing that tainted evidence is the primary purpose of the bill. Is the cabinet secretary saying that those cases will be covered?

Meeting of the Parliament

General Question Time

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

The chief constable of Police Scotland, Jo Farrell, says that the police are receiving calls related to mental health as frequently as

“three or four calls per minute on a busy day”.

The chief constable says that the demands of mental health calls were

“consuming time equivalent to 600 police officers per year”.

She went on to say that officers would take those in distress to “third party support”, but she described such provisions as a “postcode lottery”.

I am aware that the cabinet secretary knows full well the implications of mental ill health, especially for the job of police officers, but can she tell me whether the Scottish Government is looking into a national triage service, for instance, to which the police could take or direct people who are in distress?